Rose O’Donovan: Hello. I'm Rose O'Donovan. And it's the 10th of October 2024. I'm here at Riverside Studios with Heather Ruck. Welcome, Heather.
Heather Ruck: Thank you.
Heather, I wonder if we could just start If I could ask you to briefly introduce yourself and tell us what your connection is with Riverside?
Yeah, for sure. So, I was programme manager for Riverside Studios from sort of late 2007 through to early 2010. So, my time working for Riverside Studios as an organisation as a charity wasn't actually that long, but I remained very much associated with the building and the organisation because I then worked for one of the tenants or two of the tenants, for Brighton Comedy Festival and also for Assembly Festival. So I was, after I worked here, I went on to be part of the programming team for Assembly in the Edinburgh Fringe and was Head of Programming there for like four or five years, I think, and I was, also programmed at Southbank Centre, for a couple of years and then I've also worked as an independent producer and a freelance producer for different projects. So, earlier this year, I was working with Punchdrunk, which is great, and I've done various other bits and pieces. And I also worked at King's Head for a long time, which is much smaller, but kind of very, kind of another passionate and important venue, I think, in in the London theatre scene.
Thank you. And I know we surprised you by having some programmes on the table.
Yes (laughs), lots of hits of memories here!
So, from, from the archive here, I wonder if you could just cast your eye over those programmes and tell us what stands out for you, and what, what you're seeing and perhaps describe some of the memories that they're bringing back.
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot here I was thinking about. Sort of because obviously, it was quite a long time ago, and a lot has happened since then, including the building being a whole other space now. And then there was this one. Yeah, but there's a lot, lot more here than I could remember, so that's really exciting. And so there's......
Are there any in particular that catch your eye?
I mean... Unbelievably, I'd completely forgotten about Soap (laughs), which was quite extraordinary, and a massive amount of fun. And I think that's kind of, we did a lot of work when I was here. It was a bit of a, this is one of the things I think, it was a bit of a sort of a strange period in Riverside's history, I guess – all the chapters have got their own little identity. But when I was here it was just after, it was around the time of, that Gordon Brown had just taken over. And then obviously, in 2008, everything crashed. And at the same time, that was the period that Riverside lost its annual, auto annual funding that it was receiving from the Arts Council. So, it very much had to readjust its operating model, you know, in a global economic crisis, which is a challenging period,
I moved to the UK in 2007, so I was still very much learning about the kind of, the sort of, the industry and the art scene and meeting as many people as I could at that period of time as well. So, it was kind of, it was a, there was a lot of learning very quickly, I think. So, we did do a lot of work that sort of, in many ways, lent into the commercial, because it couldn't do the same risk-taking, that it was able to do in some of the years prior.
Yeah
Like I think I have, I have a lot of memories of people talking about various heydays, like there seemed to be this constant roll of heydays from before I got there. But there was kind of, I mean there was a sort of, and there's various streams, obviously, because there was a sort of TFI being such a massive thing, and that being huge and that sort of dominating everything. But then there were times where there was sort of, you know, it would be Complicite, followed by the Wrestling School, followed by Forced Entertainment. And so, the sort of, at that stage, the really sort of key – oh, still to be fair – theatre makers in the UK, sort of at the forefront of that, creating work here and then obviously going back to, you know, before and before. But it's sort of, I think, a lot of the work that we were doing, we, we were having to respond to different things in different ways. And so, I think Soap is a real.... I don't know, I feel that, and Salad Days is one that sticks out to me, to be honest, if one, if we were like, we need joy (laughs), and we need it to be high quality, but it needs to be something that brings enjoyment. And so yeah, Soap. I mean, Soap was mad. A physical theatre circus piece of, like a variety act with a man in a bath. Several, in fact, there was, like, a whole collection of people in baths doing different acrobatic things.
The other one that I've just remembered was Auto Auto, which was a piece where we had a car on stage that we destroyed every night (laughs). That was amazing. That was, that was an absolutely wild piece as well. It was a percussion piece, so I guess, yeah, sort of a percussive physical theatre piece with, by a German company, and we brought in a new vehicle every night to destroy it with the show through percussion.
Gosh, sorry....
No, wonderful memories there. So just tell me about what your role would be as programme manager in those productions?
So, I was working with William Burdett-Coutts, who was the artistic director then [1994-2020], and he would be leading on the sort of, these bigger productions coming in. But I would also work with him on, doing programming and seeking work, and seeing what we could bring in, and what we could host, and then would manage the time that the company was here and what they were doing here, and work with them on sort of all the logistics, and be the liaison between the company and the other departments. So, sort of like working with them and our technical team here. And yeah, and with the Box Office and the Front of House team and just making sure that everything was in place, so kind of like, yeah, sort of a liaison, I guess, is one way to describe it.
[06.56] So that sounds like the relationship with the creative director would be a really important one. So, tell us a bit more about that.
Yeah. So, we worked very closely, and I think William put a lot of trust in everybody that he worked with. I think he worked intuitively, still does. I shouldn't speak about him, but he still does this, in his role as AD at Assembly. And he works from both the head and the gut, definitely. So, there's things that he just instinctively and intuitively knows will have a life, and it can't, you can't always pinpoint why. And, but he also, yeah, he would, he would have a lot of trust and faith in the people that he put into roles and had around him and was very happy for people to bring things to the table and make suggestions and put things into play. And yeah, very supportive in that way, from the, from the programming perspective. Absolutely, yeah.
And how much of the programming would be strategic, strategic plan and how much would be opportunistic?
I think it's, I mean, it's absolutely a combination of both. And I mean, like I was saying, like, it's a tricky period of time, because we had to adjust very quickly to not, to no longer having a kind of like base funding, which obviously wasn't everything but it, you know, taking away – I think it was a quarter of a million or something – it was, like, really massive the sort of, the loss that it was. And then how that had to remodel and restructure the operations of the building, and the work that we could put on. And so then that becomes a conversation about the companies that you're working with, and where there could be investment from the venue. And what, where we needed to operate as a venue for hire, and curate the programming, and so the sort of, the sort of, the strategy of what we could bring in. And ensuring that there was a mix of things that would appeal to a broad sense of audience. But, yeah, I think ensuring quality was pretty, was pretty important across the board. I don't know if that answered the question?
[09.13] Absolutely, absolutely. And take us back, if you can, to when you first came into Riverside. Can you remember those first impressions of working here in terms of the space and the sounds and the atmosphere?
Well, gosh, I was fresh off the boat, as they say, and so enthusiastic, and so eager. And I had only been in the country, maybe not even six months. I worked in Edinburgh Fringe, so I worked, and I worked for William up there. So I worked for the Edinburgh Fringe and just sort of threw myself right in, seeing as much as I could, talking to everybody that I could because I was like, right, OK, I’ve made the decision, I was coming here, I was moving, I was embedding myself. And then I came on to sort of help with things. And then there was a change in staffing here, and I took on the role of programme manager after that.
But it was just, I mean it just had such a great vibe. There were, I mean, physically, there were all sorts of sounds that came out of the building that you weren't quite sure what they were, and same with smells (laughs), I think being an old building on the river. Yeah, there's... I mean, honestly, I don't know how the bar staff managed in the office that they did, because it was a cupboard, and it stank.
But yeah, I think just the, there was an energy in the building that was completely undeniable as well. And I think there was so much happening because there was, there was so many tenants as well. There was, that was a big part of the sort of, I guess, part of the modelling was that there was a lot of other organisations who had their offices here. And so there was just a constant buzz and hum of people having conversations and ideas and projects coming to fruition. And yeah, I think it had, also there's, it, it had almost like instant nostalgia to it. It's like I've never been there before, but you’re straight away, you're at home. It's, there was something very comforting about it, I don't know, it was just... And it was entirely ramshackle. I mean, I can't think you can, it's like there was, it had evolved over so many years, there had been different stages where different bits had been fixed or repaired or done up. And then, other bits had been undone. but yeah, it was, it was definitely an energy to it that I think is, yeah, that's kind of the sort of the key element for me.
Sounds magical. And you've mentioned working with William. Were there any other colleagues that stand out to you as memorable colleagues that you worked with?
Absolutely. I mean, I am in contact with so many people to this day, who I worked with here. And I think that is probably a combination of things, in that it was where a lot of us were at in our lives at the time that we were working in an event. And I think this, I think this can happen quite a lot for people who work together in venues, and it's sort of because there is, obviously, there's a, there's a a collective focus on what you're trying to achieve together, regardless of your, the varying agendas from different departments that can come up. And so, but it is about making sure it all works together, and that everything happens, and so there's, there's a, there's a sort of like, there's a camaraderie that happens, I think, within venue staff. And I think, for a lot of the time there are people who are working and they're at certain stages of their career that will then go on to do something else. And I think that's, that was definitely where it was for me and where I was.
And I think adding to that (sorry, I think I just pressed on the microphone there). Adding to that, I hadn't been here very long, so I built, like my social life out of this place as well. And, and then married someone here (laughs), although not while we were here like, yeah. But yeah, so there's kind of, it's had a huge impact.
[13.40] And you you've already mentioned a couple of the highlights in terms of the programme and some of the challenges. Are there any other highlights or key challenges that really stand out for you during your time here?
There were some.... I think that logistics, apart from financial, which was always, I mean, and that's everywhere, anywhere, you always want more money to do more things and to get it shinier or have the bigger company and do all of that and make it better for everyone. But I think logistics were one of the things that were both the blessing and the curse of the building in many ways. I think it was incredible the amount of work and from different aspects that we had going on at the same time. I've seen about this before and that kind of, because there would be, you know, you'd have weeks where there was, like a film festival going on in the cinemas, up in the cinema upstairs. And then there'd be, I don't know, some kind of wild fringe theatre happening in Studio Three at the front of the building. And then you'd have someone like Forced Entertainment or some kind of, like big scale theatre production in the main studio.
And then you'd have a queue of people waiting outside to come in to be the audience for a show that Keith Lemon was doing. And it was just everybody just there together, and just going, yep, in and out of each other's way, and the mixture of that was incredible and absolutely one of the strengths of the space. And in that, you know, overwhelming way that everybody was welcome from all walks of life. But at the same time, that presented so many challenges for us, for the logistics of moving that many people around.
Soundproofing was a huge, huge, huge issue in how we could stagger things. I can't remember, I have a feeling like a memory because I wasn't here when it happened, but that there was something that the wall between Studio Two and Studio One was removed. And I think it was for a stunt on TFI Friday. So, it was all very back in the day when I was here. And the wall when it was reinstated, wasn't a real wall. So, we never, we basically had a temporary wall between these two enormous spaces, one of them that housed big scale TV productions and lots of, with live audiences, so lots of panel shows and lots of things like that, where there was lots of whooping and cheering and music. And then, you know, a 400-seat black box studio that was housing an array of incredible theatre and physical work, and so just sort of trying to work out the logistics and the timings of that was, was a challenge. And that was, yeah, so that was one of the challenges of programming here.
[16.30] How, how do you, what did you learn about managing the stress of all of that?
Chips and wine! (laughs) That was, I mean, there was, for the most part, we were able to manage and resolve things between us as, the sort of, the different leads on different spaces. And we would stagger timings for things, we would adjust stuff as we needed to. And we had, obviously, we had ops meetings and stuff like that all the time, to make sure that things that were coming in weren't clashing. But we had one, this is a one quite significant clash, which was incredibly stressful. When we did have Forced Entertainment here one year, and it was, brilliant piece, but it was sort of a solo piece, and the performer was lying on the floor for a lot of it, speaking into a microphone in whispers. And despite so many meetings and structures, and, and plans and things, stuff ran at times it wasn't meant to in the TV studio next door, and Stereophonics launched their new album over the top of the last 10 minutes of a performer lying on stage, whispering in the next studio. And that was the studio with the not quite real wall. So, yeah....
How did that play out, Heather?
Oh, God, it was horrible. It was horrible. I, we also had a Q&A after that show, it was just like, just one of those things of, like, you couldn't even just sort of apologise to everybody on their way out. So, obviously the company were rightly furious, and I apologised to the artists and the audiences. We did our best to get through the Q&A and then we had a lot more meetings following that about how to avoid that ever happening again. And I also drank a lot of wine that night, after I'd spoken to everybody, I just, yeah, I, I borrowed some of Stereophonics’ rider, I think. Yeah.
[18.47] So following on from that, what, what do you think is unique about Riverside Studios?
I think it's, I don't know. I mean, I think there was definitely the, I mean, yeah, the space felt like no other arts centre. I think there's a lot of, and I don't know if that's just because of, again, if it's, you know, one of the the culmination of the time that I was here in my life, the time that it was in the world, the time that it was for other people who were working here, the work that was being made at that point, like it kind of... But I have worked in other venues, and I have not had that same feeling of, I don't even know if I can really describe it, but it's, but it's, I've not I've not had that same, I've not had the same experience or feeling of being within a venue of this one like this one. and I think it was just, yeah......
It’s the alchemy of Riverside.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah, yeah. And I think it was a combination of the work that we were doing that everyone was, everyone was always really proud to support. And I think the other thing was that there was, and I think this is not necessarily unique to Riverside, but it felt unique to the collection of people that were here at the time, is that the amount of creatives that were part of the team. So, the kind of, the people who worked in the box office, in the bar and the sort of the operational staff, and how creative they all were and that it, you know, and everyone had their own projects on the go. like the stuff that's yeah. I mean, it's phenomenal, really, the sort of, the things that have happened from the group of people that were here, even in that, like, tiny window. Like I, I remember seeing Alan Davis, Davies talking on, when he was on a panel show that was in the TV studio, and he was talking about how when he first, he used to work in the cloakroom and like, at Riverside, and now he's on a panel show. And everyone was like, oh my God, amazing. I was like, well, that's kind of like, that's gonna be the future for everybody here. And there is, yeah, there’s kind of, so many examples of the people of work that other people have gone on to do. I think. [Looking at Daniel Thurman, who is observing] Am I allowed to talk about you? [Daniel shrugs] Obviously, there's lots of people who are writers who’ve gone on to, you know, create a sort of incredible work. And Adam Penford was one of our box office managers: he's been the artistic director for Nottingham Playhouse for the last few years. Charlie Covell worked in the bar for a while, before she, you know, wrote Kaos and The End of the F**king World for Netflix. Just whatever. I mean, it's just been loads. Emily Dobbs. Emily Dobbs, was in the bar here. We programmed, I programmed one of her shows here, and then she's gone on to produce stuff in the West End and co-produced work on Broadway. And yeah, I mean, there's loads of, I mean yeah, people who like Lindsey, created a festival that ran for 10 years. Lindsey Bowden created the Twin Peaks Festival that started here and then ran for another 10 years across various other venues in London and all manner of things. There are loads more, but those are the ones that are in my head at the moment.
Thank you
Yeah.
[22.40] What about engagement with the local community while you were here? Do you think that that was effective? Were you able to do it?
I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a sort of, it's a, Hammersmith is a is a really interesting area I think, it's just sort of the extremes and the class divide that that exist here are quite extraordinary. And I think that this kind of, there was a lot that was accessible to a lot of people in the, in the work that we did and in the spaces that we had. And I think also through, partners and other people who operated around the building. And a lot of the work that we presented as well, like I, I think, one of the flyers that's, that's here, is for Fool for Love, which was by a company called Love and Madness - that's right.
And so, this one had Sadie Frost and Carl Barat in it. But the work that Love and Madness did, they always did stuff in Rep and they, their engagement with the local schools was incredible. And they brought loads of young audiences in. I think having, making sure that there was relationships like that, that continued through the programming, so that we were able to engage with various streams without that being a draw on our resources, which were quite limited at that time, was, it was one of the, one of the great things we did. And also, I think, with one of the other companies that was here, Albert and Friends who used to run circus training, and sort of loads of stuff for local, local families and young people. And I think that you know, as much as we could, wherever we could, there was accessible ticket pricing and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I think it was, and a really broad range of offerings throughout the programming, across all the streams as well. Yeah.
[24.36] Brilliant. And what impact has the role had on your career going forward?
I would say significant. So, yeah, so from here, I did various, I've done various other roles, but I have done a lot of programming off the back of this, including Assembly, where I was there for several years, so that's.... Assembly is one of the largest, multi-venues that operates in Edinburgh Fringe. So yeah, which is obviously, there was a, you know, with great international reach through that. I also – probably South Bank off the back of that as well – I think that was, having an understanding of the operations of multi space venues and how to programme for that, and the different audiences, and the different kinds of works that you need to do.
And it's also, I mean, it's just, its relationships, and, like, connections with people and working with people here, that I am still working with to this day. Absolutely. it was born out of, born out of projects here, yeah.
[25.59] And I know you've mentioned that you have had those ongoing connections with Riverside. How has Riverside changed since you left your role here?
Physically, a lot. I think, I, yeah, because I, it sort of, it closed – is it closed in 2014? – is that the building closed in 2014, and then, yeah, it had obviously, the five years of the build and development. And I think, I have to be honest, I don't live on this side of town anymore, and I don't come over as much as I should, so. But it was really exciting coming in today because I haven't been here for ages, but it felt like, again it felt like there was a buzz and there were people sitting in the in the bar outside, working. There are people, there's people talking about things that will become projects, you know what I mean? Like, there's kind of, there was a sense of engagement and a sense of activity, and so that felt really good. It also feels much cleaner. It feels like you wouldn't have to move your desk when it rained. (laughs). Yeah, things like that, that's, but that's. And I think that, I think in terms of what's happening in the programming here, reopening the space, and I mean effectively, you have to start again with your audience space after that period of time that it ended up being closed for, and then COVID. So, a huge, huge undertaking to get those wheels back in motion. And I think that it's sort of, yeah, it feels like there's definitely traction again now, and that's incredibly exciting to see.
[27.47] And do you think anything has been lost in the new building?
I mean, I really don't want to be one of those people that's like “back in my day.....”, but I think there's, any time, any time that there's a massive refurbishment, there's gonna be a sense of that, because it's, it's so easy to attach nostalgia to things that don't work, and that being like a quirk or a nuance instead of like, just not safe anymore. So, and I think that, in the creative industries we have an ability to romanticise things as well. And so, it's very easy to sort of make the story about how wonderful and glorious it was in these days. But I, it, I, you know, there's no reason that's not its future and its present as well for the people who are here now, and I think that that's kind of, I think, that's beyond the, you know, bricks and mortar, which definitely needed replacing.
[28.54] Do you think that Riverside has made a difference?
In what way? In what...
Has it had an impact on...
Socially?
Socially, yes.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that there's absolutely an appetite for the spaces and the flexibility of the spaces that there are here, and then the work that can then be shared and the stories that can be told that other venues can't do. I think the scale and the, what you can do with the black box studio is – I'm very much coming from this from the theatre perspective as well, sorry I, I feel like I'm completely excluding film, and that's not on purpose, it's more just my focus of what my experience was and things like that. And obviously I don't really know anything about what's happening with TV either, but that's, oh gosh, she's gone on a tangent.
That’s OK.
Yeah, we were talking about sort of the impact, and I think, and I think also for this area. I think having somewhere that is accessible to everybody who lives here because it is such a varied, a varied space, a varied part of town.
[30.13] So when you were programming, you were saying there about, the fact that you concentrated on certain areas, tell us a bit more about that,
We, there's been a sort of a history throughout the programming of the theatre work at Riverside that lent into the physical. So that was definitely a part of what we were doing. And so, like, I remember we had Circa, the Australian circus company, I think they did their first London performances with us. and they, you know, there's multiple companies of them touring the world any at any one time now. But being a space that could be somewhere that someone could be discovered from, it was very exciting. And I think yeah, there was, we weren't, yeah, we weren't able to be, as we had to be slightly more risk averse than there were, there potentially was the opportunity to be previously, you know, in a, in a funded scenario, in a subsidised world. But it was, so then the work needed to shift to adjust that. Which doesn't, and I think that sometimes that can come with the connotations of an adjustment in quality, and I don't think that that's true or fair. I think it's, it's just a shift in the perception and how you think about it, and the sort of, yeah...
[31.47] So if you had to categorise or summarise Riverside for the time that you were here in three words, what do you think you would choose?
Oh, gosh. That's, oh, that's genuinely stumped me, I'm gonna need a little moment on that. I don't know. I mean, there's, I’d say it was passionate. And I'd say it was, I’d say it was open. I'm thinking about this from the kind of, like the sort of the experience of the building and warm. So, I've not used any creative words there – never mind – I think that's more about the experience of being in the building, maybe.
Passionate, open and warm – lovely. And we're just, shortly drawing to a close, Heather, but I'm just interested in any other memories or anything else that you would like to bring alive really, from your time here?
I mean, there are many memories, some of them that definitely can't be discussed on a recording. But just I, it was so integral to, and to what my life has become, I think. She was very dramatic to say, but I think that, in the time that I was here and what that has meant in my life, and who that has brought into my life, and who both personally and professionally, and both at once. It's just, yeah, it was hugely important, even for such a short period of time. And I did spend more time here because I was in, you know, offices here as well and still connected. But yeah, yeah, I think my life has been very much built around this space for quite a long time.
Thank you, thank you so much, Heather, for sharing your memories with us of Riverside.
Pleasure. Thank you.
