Interview Transcript:
Hope: There we go, we should be recording. It’s down to the table. It's supposed to be at lip level. So if you're, if you feel like that's, and I'll just point it towards you as well. Just playing with Mic set up.
Kiz: Hi Milena
Hello, how are you?
[0.20] Nice to meet you, nice to meet you, Milena. My name's Kiz, which is spelt Kiz. I'm one of the volunteers here at Riverside Studios. So it's very nice to meet you and I'm going to ask just a few questions, as Hope was saying, really to get your recollection of your time working here. So if you're ok, we'll make a start.
Sure.
Ok, great. It's the 29th of February 2024, and we're here at Riverside Studios and OK, I'll start my, with my first question. So, Milena, if you could just tell us in general terms about how you first became involved with Riverside Studios,
I think everybody in London who was interested in the arts knew about the Riverside Studios, particularly about the theatre. So I would come and see the theatre and come as often as I possibly can. However, later on, I was asked by David Elliot, who was director of the Museum of Modern Art in Oxford, to be a researcher on an exhibition of Mayakovsky, “20 years of art work”, which he himself was a curator. So I researched that exhibition for about a year and was seeing David and so on. And the exhibition opened in Oxford, and later on travelled, and one of the venues, the last venue, was Riverside Studios. So it was exciting to come to Riverside Studios and work on this exhibition. And I think David Elliot by that time, trusted me enough to allow me to help with the installation, but particularly I was in charge with deinstallation of the exhibition.
And at the time, David, David Gotthard, who was director of the Riverside Studios was coming around looking at everything and then out of the blue, he invited me to come and have a coffee with him during the time of deinstallation. And he said, “Look, I am, I lost the director of the Riverside Studios gallery. Would you like to be one? I'm offering you a position. I need your help.”
And I was totally shocked, because you have to understand my background was in Slavonic Studies, Comparative Literature. And I did also study and my specialty was Russian art beginning of the 20th century, in other words, Russian avant-garde, but I have never run a gallery. I have frequented different galleries in London and elsewhere, Paris, for example, but I haven't run or worked for that matter in any gallery. So I said to David, “David, I, I really do not know anything. I would be, I would love to work with somebody here, for somebody in particular, that you would choose, but I, I don't think I have capabilities to run it.”
And David looked at me and he said, “Look, I'm offering this for you. Either you want to begin tomorrow or, or in two days or that's it.” And I said to myself, you know, of course, I'm talking to a person who is totally inspired and I mean, he is fascinating here, on this unbelievable place. Nobody knows me. If I accept position and if I'm fired in five days, nobody in the world will know me, know about it. You have to understand, I was a refugee from Czechoslovakia which was invaded by the Soviet Union in 1968. I studied in England at Essex University, but I really didn't have any family, I had few friends, my English wasn't really that particularly profound. So I said to myself, what, what am I losing by not saying here? So I said, “Yeah. All right, I'll take it.” So the following day and I decided I'll be biking to the work because I needed to get all of my energy out and, and not be frightened.
So I come, and David and his manner, you know, David was, David was basically Riverside Studios, would come grab me and he would say “There is Michael Newman here. He's proposing an exhibition, go and sit down with him and discuss it. “And I said “Who is Michael Newman?” And he said “One of the most important young critics - you'll get on with him very well. So I go to meet with Michael Newman, and Michael Newman was indeed one of the most important young critics and writers about British art or English art. And there he was, it was, I think probably at the time 24, and I don't know, maybe a little bit older. So then we sit down, and Michael looks at me and he says “Do I need to explain to you the exhibition I want to talk to you about, as if I need to convince you? Or do you have somebody else that you have to convince, and I have to talk to you in that way?”
And I said, I think to Michael, something like “Michael, this is my first day. I know absolutely nothing. I don't even know, I don't have a budget. I, I don't know anything.” And Michael brightened up and he said “This is fantastic because most of the people who take these positions, know everything and they do nothing.”
And he said “Well, why don't we discuss first what you want to do here?” I said “Please.” And he said “May I, may I offer you some ideas?” And I said “Of course, I would be most grateful.” So Michael offered me two ideas. And he said “You know, considering the art situation in London, there are two possibilities. You can give opportunity to artists who are in, past their mid-career, and they do not have an opportunity to show at Tate or any other venue like Serpentine. And you could give them, you know, a big chance.” And he said “And these exhibitions will be very well attended because these people have following. Or you can work with very young artists who really haven't had any shows yet, and you would be giving them individual shows, because group shows around a particular theme are usually placed at the ICA and there is no any other venue in London that would look about artists individually. Nobody will come, but you will start understanding how art is made, what these artists are doing, and of course, you will form a very close friendships with these particular artists.
And I said “But it seems to me that the latter makes sense to me, considering my age, my experience, or lack of it. So why don't we start there?” So there he is, he sits there, and we still are sitting, he writes down a list of names. I don't know, maybe 10, 12, with the telephone numbers, sometimes off his head, sometimes looking at his diary and he says “Go and see, make appointment and after an appointment, give me a call and tell me what you think.”
Well, it was terrific. I was so excited. Well, the first name was Richard Deacon. So I call Richard Deacon and I go to his studio and I was utterly and completely shocked by the quality of the work, by the newness, the new ideas which were presenting themselves in this work. And by the way, David talked about it, in connection to other artists that I knew nothing about, like Anish Kapoor and so on. I mean, maybe I have seen their exhibitions, but I have not been to their studios. And it was an incredible visit. I thanked him, I came back to my office, I called Michael and I say “Absolutely fantastic.” He said “So what do you want to do?” And I said “I'd like to offer him a show.” He said “OK, do it in half a year, that will give him enough time to prepare himself and do a show.”
So basically, this is how it start happening. Then one visit after another, and then of course other people that I met started to talk to me, among them was, for example, Waldemar Januszczak, who was a major critic, but he also had ideas about shows. Guy Brett, who had knowledge and I wish now that I listened more to Guy Brett than I did at the time. And so this is how it started happening. So these are my beginnings.
[10.30] Thank you, Milena. Just thinking back to the time that you were working at Riverside Studios. I mean, I don't know whether you've been back recently or not, but if you can just think about and remember your experience of walking to the studios and, and what the, the environment was like, the building was like, what it sort of sounded like and, and almost even smelt like at the time. What's your memory of that?
Well, all of this was extremely exciting to me, because Riverside Studios at the beginning of the 80s, was really reflecting what the, on the edge spaces looked like. For example, I went to some of the performances, musical performances at Roundhouse in Camden Town, and maybe I have seen some other places of a similar kind, but Riverside was that sort of environment. And you could tell right from the beginning that this is a place where artists gathered together during the day. And yes, there was a little coffee bar with some kind of a food, I cannot even remember. Some staff and the artist, or anybody who would come by, would sit there and talk and when I talk, the people who come by, I mean, I'm talking about Samuel Beckett. I'm talking about George Theiner who was editor of Censor, Index on Censorship. I am talking about Roland Penrose, old generation of art historians, who himself was an artist, and a specialist on Picasso. Tony Korner who was a publisher of Art Forum in New York.
You know, it, it was kind of a place where people of that kind, including George Kostakis who came there. Especially for me, he was one of the largest collectors of Russian constructivism of Greek origin. And he came from the Soviet Union, and he had Russian and he had nobody to talk to. So we talked together in Russian: you have to remember that I am half-Russian and half-Czech, and my Russian family escaped from the revolution to Czech Republic - not very far, of course. And so I, I was bilingual in Russian and Czech. So George would come and talk to me about Russian constructivism and all this. And you know, it was the sort of environment where these people could come in to see you, or see some other artist. There were dancers like Michael Clark. There was an artist who was in residence, Bruce McLean, and these artists were all hanging around, talking to you.
And obviously being in such an environment, you knew that you are in a place which was full of unbelievable freedom. I have never experienced anything like that since, because everywhere else you have administration, which is extremely heavy and you are always answerable to someone. Yes, Riverside was answerable to different entities, but David Gotthard was there between us and all of those entities. So it was a place of unbelievable boundless freedom. It was expecting that if you are there, that you are breaking new ground, very similar to what was happening in the theatre.
And the theatre was bringing completely new people to London. And these new people like Tadeusz Kantor, who came from Poland with his crew, they were mingling with the audiences during the day. And you know, the expectations on you were of enormous, not necessarily pressure, but expectation of excellence. And what you personally hope to do is to delight the visitors. I mean, you wanted visitors to be part of all of this commotion, all of these exciting moments. So it was a little bit like that and, and of course, inside as individuals, we were young, some of, some of the people who were there were also old, but they were all involved in the arts.
So it was all about creativity and, you know, the creativity was boundless. And David Gotthard, who was in charge of all of this, in a way, encouraged that creativity. Of course, he also encouraged friendships who were far more than friendships, that were almost as if we were a family. Just to give you one example, I had an exhibition on which I worked with Roland Penrose very much, at the beginning of Miro. We had photographs, so we had some paintings that Roland lent us and so on. And I received telephone call from David, probably Saturday, Sunday, very early in the morning. Galleries would, I think, open at noon and some days, maybe they are closed Monday: I cannot remember really these details But I do receive a telephone call on one of those days. And just remember that we were not only working for the gallery: when there was a theatre performance, we were part of it. You know, David would say “Oh, Kantor is doing performance, a third performance tonight because we have so much audience and it starts at 11 pm. So you are all coming. Have you seen it, Milena?” “Yes.” “How many times?” “Once.” “Well, you are going to see it again.” So, you know, we were all coming home 2-3 o'clock in the morning and then I received call at 9 am from David and David says “You have to come immediately.” And I'm like, “Ah, what has happened?” And he said “The works were stolen. We have nothing in the gallery.” So I was like “What?” he said “You have to come.” OK. So you know, quick, quick, quick, I come, open the gallery, everything is there. I go to David's office, say “David...” and he said “I was so lonely...” [laughter] You know, and so this is the relationship I'm talking about and we all had that relationship.
There was another person who was a designer and, and, and he was on drugs and, you know, we, we needed to make sure that when we needed the design card, that there was a time where we could help him be clean. I would say “Please, we need this card, we need this card.” “Oh no, no, not to worry please. Tomorrow.” I mean, honestly, it has to go out, you know, it was done. But it was that kind of relationship between artists, the people inside, everybody helping each other.
And even David would say, you know, somebody was struggling somewhere, something happened to the people. And David would say, “Well, we cannot know for sure, because none of us were with that person.” So, you know, it was a very knit, very close environment of people who really tried to do their best, and absolutely enjoyed every minute of it.
And of course, some of the enjoyment was incredibly tense because you know, we were depending on, in terms of the work, whether the work is arriving to the Riverside Studios or not arriving, or whether the door is locked properly, whether we can get proper insurance and all these kind of things. But because we were working so closely together, each person had a particular talent and their talent was allowed to grow, and what you missed the other person had, and they were able to help with it.
[19.40] That's great, Milena. Thank you. I mean, as you mentioned, Riverside Studios at the time was, was very close knit, almost like a family, as you've said. And you've mentioned how it was very good at nurturing individual talents and sort of playing to people's strengths. So I think you've, you've sort of covered, in a sense, what I suppose you would regard as being distinctive or unique about Riverside Studios at that time. I think beyond that, I was wondering whether, from a personal perspective, whether Riverside Studios offered something to you that you might not have, not have been offered elsewhere, or, or just thinking about the sort of impact Riverside Studios had on you, or has had on you in your life and career, because I think you started off by mentioning how they gave you a chance. I was wondering, I was wondering whether you could talk a bit more about that perhaps.
Oh, absolutely. Well, you, I should also say that I come from a family that, my father worked with Milos Forman when he was in Czech Republic. So I was really exposed to the arts from very early on. However, to what about the film? My grandfather was one of the founders of the Slavonic Library at Clementino, which is one of the most distinguished library in Czech Republic. And he did that after, after the revolution. So, in a way, what I want to say, I lived in an environment where we had at home, scripts for films made by different filmmakers in Czech Republic. I was there, when I saw films being made by Milos Forman like Firemen's Ball. So I was exposed from very early on to an environment with artists. And what Riverside has confirmed for me is that I could live in that environment, because it was the first, in my personal life, that I could participate in and actually have a voice in.
I have to say that really there were two most important people in, in forming my career. The first one was David Elliott. It was without him offering me a position of a researcher on Mayakovsky exhibition, I wouldn't have entered, so early, the visual art or museum kind of environment. And the second one undoubtedly was David Gotthard, who had very unorthodox views of who he should work with. But David Gotthard talent was that he, he and I (I don't want to speak only about myself), is that he spotted talent immediately. And I mean, in artists and he knew, you know. I, I never had to consult with him, the artist I was selecting. I mean, originally, I would come to him and say “This, and this will be in the show.” And, and you know, David was like, “Oh, great, good.” You know, at the beginning, he would have some say, like he wanted a show of Roberto Matta, which were Tempest drawings [Matta: Storming the Tempest, Riverside Studios, London, December 22, 1982–January 23, 1983]. And then I became friends with Roberto Matta. Tadeusz Kantor Theatre. And with the, with that, also his work was displayed. But from then on, it really was kind of my decision, though David stepped in as a friend, from time to time. We had Melissa, friendly dancer, in collaboration with Francesco Clemente. So of course, Francesco Clemente was a, a visual artist.
So, you know, these things happened quite naturally and the impact it had on me was completely formative. And I think probably on other people working with me, and there were indeed Greg Hilty, and also, in the area of education, it was Kate McFarlane. I don't know whether you had an opportunity of speaking to her and I don't know what has happened to her. And what it did for me is, you know, gave me an enormous, at the time, not quite, which I didn't quite realize at the time, enormous confidence that you can rely on other people, can have discussion with other people and make decisions about whom to show. Trust your instincts in terms of discussion with other people, but also be prepared to make a decision, you know, don't waiver, don't wait.
I think at the time there was this kind of sense in, in England or in London, you know, that, you had to kind of wait probably for approval to decide on an exhibition. Well, I never had a sense that you have to wait for anything. I think partially my temperament, being thirsty for the arts and being thirsty to help the artist and being close to the artist, on the one hand, on the other hand, being in an environment which wanted these rapid decisions. I mean, we didn't have time to say “I want to work with Antony Gormley, let's give ourselves a year.” - it was impossible because, also with Greg Hilty, I think we gave ourselves a certain, certain decision-making points which was, we have to show an artist before the artist shows in, in a museum environment.
So really, we had to move quickly. And I remember reading in the papers, very small article, I think if I'm not mistaken, something like that, David, no, that Richard Deacon was an offered an exhibition at Tate, before he had exhibition with me. And so I read this, and I was sort of like, ah, so this one is gone, and suddenly I get a telephone call from Richard and Richard says “I will have an exhibition Milena, first with you before I do anything with Tate later on.” And I think this was kind of the relationship that Riverside allowed me to also have with the artists and with it came, of course, a responsibility.
For example, we were not only working with British artists, we are working with American artists. So, Rebecca Smith, who was, who was editor of ZG magazine approached me with an exhibition which was called “Between Here and Nowhere”, I think it was in 1984. And we agreed to it and, you know, we showed for the first time, I believe in England, somebody like Sherrie Levine, Laurie Simmons, Dara Birnbaum. Tom Otterness. I mean, you know, when you look at the programme like “Young Blood”, which I did with Michael Craig-Martin in 1983, first time show for Julian Opie, Liza Milroy and others.
You know, we did an exhibition of Russian artist in exile, somebody like Oleg Kudrayshov. And from the show, and that was helped, was helped by Roland Penrose to spread the word. And the work ended up at Tate and Victor, V and A. I was in New York and saw a show of Nancy Spero in very small gallery in East Village, I think in 1983-84. And Nancy Spero being wife of Leon Golub. Leon Golub had an exhibition at the ICA in London. So I offered a show to Nancy Spero. I had no money, and Nancy Spero said “Don't worry, I'll put my scrolls together with a kind of transparent material, and I send it by a regular post” - you know, you cannot buy now, Nancy Spero, it's so expensive.
But we formed with Nancy Spero lifelong relationships. So when I was later on at the Hirshhorn Museum, and I was in charge of buying work with another person, with another curator, and Elgood for the Hirshhorn collection. And we bought one, the gallery then said Nancy would like to also offer a gift acknowledging our friendship, to the Hirshhorn Museum for free.
So, you know, this is what Riverside did for me, no other place did the same because, just because of the possibilities of those relationships and also kind of conviction. And I should say that Greg Hilty played a really incredible role in it, because I was maybe a little bit like David Gotthard, you know, a little bit crazy, convinced that there are certain artists we should give shows to or favouring. And I remember telling Greg when I came from New York, I said, “You know, I love Nancy Spero's work.” I didn't even have photograph, I just told him it looks like this and this and I'd love to do a show but we can't do it. I have no money. And David said “Well, why don't you..”, Greg said “Why don't you call her and tell her this? Maybe you will come with a solution.” I said “Oh, you are absolutely right.”
And then there was an artist Magdalena Jetelova, she lived in, and I should say that I stayed in touch during all of this time with artists from Eastern Europe because there were, they didn't have any opportunities and, more and more, I realized that the work was just as strong as many of the artists in the West.
Guy Brett was another one who talked to me about artists from South America. So you start realising that we are not only in Britain, North America, but there is much larger spectrum of artists from other parts of the world and so I offered show to Magdalena Jetelova. Well, Magdalena couldn't have a show. Her authorities would not allow her to have a show. So what happened is her dealer got her work out to Germany and then he sent the work to us. And I had no idea whether Magdala Jetelova would ever come. And we did the show, based really on my selection of work from the dealer in Germany.
And then Magdala Jetelova escaped from very difficult circumstances, from Czechoslovakia. And you know, Czech authorities believed that I helped her to escape. So I was then given not only three year prison sentence in my absentia but also was stripped forever by the Supreme Court of Czechoslovak citizenship. But I have to tell you, you are so young, you are so excited, these things didn't matter to me at all.
They were normal pattern of life of somebody from Eastern Europe. I only knew that if I'm travelling, I have to not jump on the planes that by any chance cross any countries in Eastern Europe just in case they land, and I could be apprehended. But otherwise we, this is how we worked at Riverside. Magdalena Jetelova's show was incredibly successful. One of her works was at the Serpentine. The show then traveled to Arnolfini, later on she was selected for a small show at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. Later on, she ended up in Documenta and so on.
And I'm mentioning her because these things happen also to other people of British background. But I'm mentioning her because what we did at Riverside Studios, and what David Gotthard encouraged, is really to show artists from everywhere and give them the opportunity, and I think this is what, personally to me, created my personality in many ways.
[ 34.05] Thank you Milena. You mentioned putting on shows by Nancy Spero and Magdalena just a moment ago. Just thinking about your own enjoyment of some of the shows that we were put on at Riverside Studios, are there any others that particularly remain in your memory or that are special for some reason to you personally?
You know, I really, it's very interesting that you asked that. I was asked that question whether I've got some favorite artists and so on, when I was interviewed, when I was offered position of Director of the Institute of Contemporary Art in Boston later on and I said I'm just so much in love with the arts, I don't have anybody or anything in specific that I could mention. But what I could mention is one fact or maybe two facts. One is that we did exhibitions of up and coming artists like Steven Campbell, who was a painter. He later on died but it was his first painting exhibition Figurative in 1984 at Riverside as well as the Fruit Market Gallery. On the basis of that, I believe the Metropolitan in New York, its director curator came to see the show and I believe acquired the work. So, on the one hand, we did show up and coming artists like Sonia Boyce who recently, two years ago, three years ago, represented Britain in Venice Biennale.
Well, she showed her works in the show called Reflection in 1985 at Riverside Studios. You know, I mean, I'm sure she or many people have long forgotten Richard Prince, major artist, American. He showed at Riverside Studios in 1984 or Maureen Paley uh who has her own gallery. She selected a show called Antidote to Madness which we wanted to show. And in that show, she had Richard Hamilton, Nam June Paik, Cri Morton, Hannah Collins, Pyotr Sobieralski but that was in 1986.
And what I'm trying to show is that we showed or exhibited artists with different streams, conceptual technology figuration, different streams. And I think because of this, we were, or I was, as you probably know, nominated for the Turner Prize in 1985 which was a total shock. You know, I thought that Alan Bonness who called me to inform me was making a joke and people told me Alan Bonness doesn't joke Milena.
You know, these were these, but out of all of these shows, I think another one that sort of stands out is on the one hand collaborating with Museum of Modern Art on an exhibition of Bill Viola, which took place in 1987 at the Riverside Studios and that was to me really very exciting and, on the other hand, was Polish constructivism. You know, my first love is constructivism in the twenties and what happened was that, that exhibition was at Kettle's Yard Gallery in Cambridge and once the show was out of Poland and I think it was in 1984, Richard Stanislavski, you know, magnificent Director of the Museum Sztuki in Poland wanted the show to come to London, but you cannot get show to Tate or anywhere else at such short notice. And I think Michael Compton, who was director of programs and education, and who for the first time showed Magdelana Jetelova in a group show, which was called New Art at Tate, told him to come and talk to me. So he did. And of course, he actually did see show of Richard Deacon. So he was stunned by... again, Richard is a major sculptor and said to me, I will do it. When can you do it? And I said, whenever you want. I'll cancel everything to do this show. And he said, I can see, you cannot give me anything financial, you know, no rewards of any kind but I would like, if it is possible, maybe you can take one curator from Museum Sztuki which is Museum of Modern Art in ????? and watch, maybe for two months’ residency, so they can learn from the Riverside Studios how the shows are done. And I said, I can do that Richard but only on the condition that it will be a woman because you are all such chauvinist pigs. I'm not having a man here, it will have to be a woman and he said there is no problem, there is a great curator who is a woman. So she came, we did this show and you know, it was very interesting, later on when I was a director of the ICA, I needed to borrow work of Cobra who was one of the major artists of Russian, of Polish constructivism for a show of women artists. And so I got in touch with her and I knew that they never lent the works individually of Cobra because they didn't have many and I said, would it be possible to borrow one work? And she said, Milena, it's you, you can have three. So again, you know, this was, it kind of followed me throughout my life, these relationships with all of these artists. Later on, I worked with Antony Gormley, with whom I worked at Riverside, when I was in charge of 20th and 21st collection at the National Gallery in Prague, I again worked with Antony Gormley, for example, I again worked with Magdalena Jetelova and, you know, I think, I think these shows and these kind of decisions followed me. When I was at the National Gallery in Prague in 2017, I was asked to do a show of Gerhard Richter, but I never worked with Gerhard Richter. But I think these experiences told me not to be afraid, select other people I can work with and do it. You know, if you don't do something, you yourself are in the way.
[ ] I was wondering, Hammersmith as an area plays a part in the context for Riverside Studios. I don't know whether you've been back to the area recently or whether you could perhaps talk about your memories of Hammersmith as an area to work in.
Well it was a very working class area, very, very working class and the Riverside itself, I mean, we did talk to some architects who could do some work at the Riverside Studios. I think it was Will Allsop probably you know and maybe other architects who looked at the Riverside but what we were hoping at the time was that the, the basis of that place, meaning it's, I know it's very old fashioned word, avant garde or, or working like situation would stay there forever. But we knew as the time was going on and local authorities were interested in the space and other people too that, you know, this may not continue.
And I think in certain ways, I would say, it's almost tragic because there are so very few places that kind of belong to artists and I think we need to have spaces that really belong to artists and are supported for artists and are left to thrive, particularly for them at a certain time. We wanted, at the time also, London to become, not only centre of the visual arts, which of course, it has become and which wasn't at the time, was to become a place where conversations about visual arts could take place.
Nick Serota at the time was still at the Whitechapel and was very much in support of that. And we had, we even prepared a conference where we would have people coming from Europe. Nick was part of it and other people in England, really to discuss what can be done to make England into, or London, into the centre, just like Frankfurt was or New York. It has happened and it has amazing Tate but places like Riverside Studios or Roundhouse as they were known then, are kind of places that are needed to help to support artists’ ideas and artists themselves.
I have not been back to Riverside Studios because, once David left, everything became very different and to us, at the time, uninteresting.
[ ] Well, you talked about how Riverside Studios provided an excellent opportunity for artists or, particularly for new artists. I was wondering whether you could perhaps talk about how Riverside Studios also engaged with the local community and in particular with young people during the time you were based here.
We definitely did and this is why, with Greg, we started to work with Kate McFarlane who approached us as education person and what we did was, really, it was a model for that was the Whitechapel. Whitechapel would have artists and residents in different schools, so we did exactly the same thing. We started to approach schools, whether they would have artists in residence and what that meant was that these artists would be available to work with kids, have a studio and afterwards have an exhibition and thus have school kids come to see the exhibition at Riverside Studios but particularly be engaged with the artist that was selected and come and see that work presented at the Riverside Studios, presented in their studios and then be involved in maybe talking about the show.
And I took that idea later on to the ICA in Boston where we had boys and girl scouts’ groups trained to be teams to interpret the exhibition for the visitors. So we definitely cared about the visitors, the people around the Riverside Studios and actually one of the, many of these people who lived around the Riverside Studios found the jobs there. You know, there was a girl who worked with us on a team and I'm sure the people were also working in a bookstore or in the restaurant. I don't think that in David's mind or in our mind, there was this kind of sense that here, here we are, artist group and you know, everybody else is somebody else. No, I think it was very much mixed all together and I know that, later on, David Gotthard was accused of doing elitist stuff. Well, he did first class works and the thing is, you know, publishers need to publish best books, exhibition spaces need to show first class works, theatre needs to show first class work. But who comes? It's everybody, these places are for everybody and particularly at Riverside Studios which was so incredibly low key.
It wasn't a place that kind of had amazingly clean carpets and, you know, that would have incredibly expensive drinks and incredibly expensive food, quite the contrary. It was a very low key situation and I even remember one day and I don't, I think it was an exhibition and David's theatre happening at the same time and both of them were incredibly popular and it was opening night for both. And the whole Riverside Studios was surrounded by crowds, enormous amount of people and they would come and shout at me and saying, Milena, you cannot do it, I have my theatre performance here. It cannot do opening of an exhibition at the same time. And then he laughed and he said, do it, do it, do it, you know.
So, the people who came were not in high heels or some kind of beautiful outfits. They were everybody so, in a way, we were part of the community and I don't ever remember that anybody from the community would ever complain about us or that they were disappointed that there were so many people out there trying to get to the Riverside Studios. Nothing, nothing like that.
[ ] Milena, I mean, I just thinking about, I mean, you've covered lots of very interesting areas there. If you could think about, in terms of what sort of difference Riverside Studios made both at the time and perhaps subsequently, if you could summarise that from your perspective, what sort of difference it made both to artists, perhaps in the community and wider.
I think that if you offer your community something very dynamic, then you really have an enormous impact on their quality of life and not only on their quality of life, but if out of those people, there is one individual whom you inspire to make next steps in their life in the direction of arts, that's already in itself a huge success.
And I think all of our conversations about visual arts and involvement with other places like the Whitechapel and so on, I think it really did have an impact on what happened to London in terms of visual arts. I mean, all you need to do is to look at the dates and see what is happening. I mean, Nick Serota, being director of Tate and other people getting into different positions. I know that I left because I was married outside of UK to the United States. I know that many people who were there, like the former director of the ICA, he wanted me to move to the ICA and start working there. So I, I think what we and, and Greg, of course, his career shows you what he has done both working at the Hayward Gallery, Arts Council and so on, I think the Riverside Studios had an enormous impact on the visual arts.
I cannot overestimate, you know, David Gotthard's impact. I mean, who else was then able to offer what he did at Riverside Studios? Sadlers Wells had an international programme and they would invite Bergman and so on to do performances, once a year they had an international season but David did it all the time. He had Brian Eno doing a presentation there. Dario Foe was coming from Italy and do a presentation here. You know, I still have on the wall, some of the photographs from Riverside Studios because what David did in terms of the theatre, nobody did in London, nobody. And these things that he did were not happening once a year for a particular period of time.
[I'm sorry, I have to accept a telephone call. Hello? Yeah, perfect. Thank you. Bye.]
We're back.
No problem at all.
[ ] Milena, just, I had a couple of questions I wanted to ask you from my perspective as well. I had a very enjoyable opportunity to look at some of the archive boxes we've got here at Riverside Studios and some of that information covers the period that you were here. What became apparent to me was that you were approached regularly by lots of up and coming artists or people wanting to promote their work and you mentioned earlier that your criteria was always quality, that you wanted to get, the work had to be of a first class standard. Were there any other um considerations that you used when choosing who to exhibit and who not to exhibit?
Of course, yes, absolutely. I think both Greg, me and Kate and I'm sure, I don't know about David, but maybe David too, you know, we had literary programs that I wasn't in charge of that looked at dissident artists from all over the world. So it was very clear to me that I cannot, and I mentioned it before, really only concentrate on artists that come from England or United States, that I started to look at artists also elsewhere.
And, and of course, I did look at, now we use the word diversity, the artists who come from different backgrounds, and different cultural backgrounds, among them was somebody like Sonia Boyce and I wish now, and I wished later on that maybe I did more research and more in that area. And, I said, you know, some of these artists that I have heard about when I was at Riverside Studios, I did work with later on when I was, for example, at the ICA in Boston or at the New Museum in New York. One of them, for example, is Sildo Mireles ??? who is very well known by now, conceptual artist from Brazil. But when I work with him at the ICA, even my board said, why Milena you are always interested in artists who are not known very well? And I would say because you have to be first, you have to be first to recognize them because if, if I am not, I am failing in what I'm supposed to do. And I, I want to be also clear here that, I'm sure that I know, I made lots of mistakes and I was approached by artists that I should have worked with. I'm not going to mention their names but I do know who they are and, funnily enough, usually they were white male, but there were artists of very high quality whom I should have paid attention to. Why I didn't, I don't know. I think that happens, as you maybe grow more confident, you grow too confident and knowing what you should select and maybe I should have spent a little bit more time talking to the person and looking at the work. On the other hand, you know, Greg was involved in this too and he selected some exhibitions of people who are, who I knew nothing about at the time, for example, Peter Doig, he did a group exhibition with Peter Doig, Derek Marks and Andrew Walker in 1985. Of course, Peter Doig is an extremely well known artist by now.
So, you know, there were, there were both chance decisions to work with artists and, you know, I approached some artists who didn't work, didn't want to, like Alison Wilding or Avis Newman in particular. I liked her work a lot but she didn't like the space at the Riverside Studios. So for example, so there was one of the artists that I haven't had the chance to work with. On another, on another way, we would, you know, be approached about work by Mary Kelly, conceptual feminist artist who was at Fruit Market Gallery and we said yes at Riverside Studios to the show.
Maybe what I'm saying is that, you know, as you kind of manoeuvre, I, you, you also start realising, I certainly start realising that maybe I need to be replaced. Because I was, you know, you, you always get set in your ways. And by 1986 I felt, you know, maybe it was time for me to go. I was also getting married, moving to the United States and there was an opportunity for another thinker, for another, for another person to take, also start making decisions at Riverside Studios.
Interestingly enough, I think that David Gotthard, in some ways, always retained his freshness, I must say that. There was something in him and I think it was this kind of real insight quality that allowed him to be always looking and be prepared to do something unexpected.
[1.01.26] You've effectively answered the other question I was going to ask you Milena, which was around whether there were any artists or people that had approached you that were turned down, that you subsequently regretted turning down.
Absolutely
But it sounds like you're not going to disclose that, that's perfectly fine [laughter]. Is there any, anything else in terms of your memories of Riverside Studios that that you'd like to cover?
No, it was, all I want to say is that the place, all of these places, wherever I have been, they thrive because there is somebody at the helm who has a particular vision, and without that vision, right at the top, reflecting on the place that they are responsible for, without that not much can be achieved. And I think that David Gotthard, with whomever he talked to and whatever he believed in, he really somehow made us all believe in, in his kind of vision. You know, he, he cared about artists behind the Iron Curtain. He visited them and I think he learned a lot from the people who were not allowed to express their ideas. And he wasn't didactic enough to tell us about it, but his steps and his gestures certainly did that.
And throughout my life, I can tell you that, as I work in different museums, there are different people who have these kind of visions, and you can either agree with them and not. And I, certainly I have been hugely influenced by Riverside Studios in terms of thinking freely and be able to fight for the artists’ voices, whatever there were. Later on, that kind of person was also Marcia Tucker at the New Museum in New York. And maybe, my last director, Jiri Fajt who was director of the National Gallery in Prague, for whom I decided to work for, who was also a person of enormous convictions, unbelievable energy and as complicated as you can get. I don't really fear complicated people. I think I fear stupid people and I fear people without vision, because they really, in the end, suck life out of everything.
[1.05.04] I can't think of a better note to end the interview on. So, thank you. That's been very enjoyable, Milena, thank you so much. Hope, I don't know whether you want to....?
Hope: Yeah. Well, well, a fabulous job. I just wanted to say thank you so much because that was, Daniel has also been here listening and we've both just enjoyed it immensely. So, thank you.
Daniel: I mean, you, you'd already inspired me, just your programming. But listening to you talk really has been incredible. I mean, you are a really impressive speaker and you know, your, your knowledge and your experience is, I, I mean, I've got nothing to compare it to. It's just....
I have been very lucky, you know, I have been surrounded by people who share their knowledge, their passion and I can also say, their love with me. So I, I think, you know, if you ask me, what was my life like, I, I have to remember I'm 75, I have to tell you it has, was absolutely miraculous. Fantastic.
Daniel: Well, you know, this interview will be shared with other people and I'm absolutely sure that it will inspire other people beyond, you know, beyond Riverside. You know, thank you so much for talking to us.
Of course, anytime.
Thank you. And I must say you've made me even more keen to sit down with you at some point and have a drink and a face-to-face chat.
I'll make the trip. You know, I always make trip to London because of Jackie Hall. She worked with us at the Riverside Studios and I always think it's the last visit. And then of course, I see David who is crazy, with whom you cannot have normal conversation.
Daniel: Well, well, please add us to your list, add us to your list. You'll find Riverside today is, it's a different kettle of fish, but there's still a lot of very passionate people here, thank goodness.
Thank you.
Hope: It was lovely to speak to you. Thank you so much. Bye
Bye bye bye.
