Kiz Durrani: OK, so it's the 6th of November 2024. I'm here with Rebecca O'Brien at Riverside Studios in Hammersmith, as part of our oral history interview series. And I'm just going to go straight into it, really. I was wondering, Rebecca, whether you could start by introducing yourself and telling us a bit about your background and how you came to work for Riverside Studios and the period you were working here?
Rebecca O’Brien: So, it's a bit of a shaggy dog story how I got here, but in 1976, my mother – I come from Scotland – my mother, was involved with the Richard Demarco Gallery in Edinburgh and she went to the regular events there and met a character called David Gothard. He was actually working as a trainee theatre director at the Traverse Theatre and... actually it might have been more like 1975 when we first met. Anyway, David became a family friend. We lived in the countryside near Edinburgh, and David used to come and visit with various interesting people and my mother was really very much involved with the arts. And Richard Demarco was not just an art curator, but he also curated theatre and other things. And it so happened that he had previously invited Tadeusz Kantor and Cricot 2 [theatre company] to Edinburgh.
I think they were there a few years before this, with The Water Hen. But anyway, they were invited to come in 1976. But they came very, they were, the planning happened very late. And so, there was nowhere for the company to stay. And my mother, in her own sweet way, volunteered to put the troupe up at our large house in Peebles and also to involve local bed and breakfast people. Anyway, sorry. So, Kantor and Cricot 2 came to stay at my house. And at the same time, there was no venue for them to play at. And so, a friend of David's and the family’s, Ian Knox, who had been an art student at the Edinburgh College of Art, suggested that they do it in the sculpture court, do the show in the sculpture court at the art school, and that indeed happened.
And The Dead Class, which was the show, was an absolutely massive success. The company travelled by bus: they arrived from Poland on a bus to Peebles with a with a, you know, replete with a spy on board. And they stayed in our house for three or four weeks, and I went to see the show pretty much every night. I was actually working. I was in my gap year between school and university, and it was one of those life-changing events. They were incredible. And after Edinburgh, they were due to travel down to Riverside during the sort of period when it was only opening at weekends, early on in 1976. And I was on my way down to university, because I was going to the University of London, and we sort of dovetailed and my mum came down too, and we all ended up here at Riverside and that's my first acquaintance with Riverside. And David Gothard had organised the whole thing, and then he became part of Riverside. He was sort of adopted by Riverside and then, from then on, was working as a programme director alongside Peter Gill, who came in and was the artistic director.
So anyway, my mother and I just were very intertwined with Cricot 2. And, in fact, Kantor even asked me if I might be in the show, but I declined because I had a university to go to [laughs]. But that was how my relationship with Riverside began. And when I was at uni, I became a regular volunteer here. A lot of my friends were involved here, so I obviously knew David, Ian Knox, who'd put it on, had the idea of putting the show on in Edinburgh. He was at the National Film School at the time, and he came and, actually him and a group of friends had a set up a trapeze in where the cinema was [in the original building], and worked with some South African circus performers, and they got into doing trapeze skills up in the old cinema.
And various people sort of arrived. And I, you know, Riverside became part of my social life actually, while I was at uni. And one key person was, who David picked up in the street more or less, or he popped in because he was interested in what on earth was going on in the building, was a guy called Chris Harris, who was a graphic designer. And David, sort of, as he as he did do, he took him under his wing and Chris became involved in doing early graphic design for Riverside. And he and I were boyfriend and girlfriend for a couple of years, and Chris also developed his photography skills and became a very good dance photographer and got involved in photographing people for Dance Umbrella later and got to know all the dancers who were involved in Riverside. So, it was a sort of rich seam of friends and other people that that I got to know at Riverside.
And it was almost inevitable that after university, I mean, I'd wanted to be, I thought I wanted to be a journalist. But I got sort of distracted by going and working in, my summer holidays, I worked at the Edinburgh Film Festival. I was sort of starting to get into film, which was my big passion, And I worked in Edinburgh again for the Film Festival for three summers when Linda Miles was in charge. So, I was going to get into film. I wanted to be a journalist. When I left University, I got shortlisted for a couple of journalism courses but didn't get them. So, I ended up without a job, and David suddenly needed a new assistant. And this was the winter of, just after Christmas 1980. And David needed a new assistant and so asked if I would be that person. And Hanif Kureishi had been his assistant but David was keen that Hanif started doing a bit more writing. And so, he suggested that Hanif go and spend time in the bookshop [at Riverside] and worked in the bookshop which suited him well. And so, I took over from Hanif and worked for David for, I think, a year or something. I can't remember how long. And we were basically organising the programme - the programme of outside visiting artists, visiting performers, all the people who were doing the shows that weren't inbuilt at Riverside.
So, I mean, we put on so many things. I think it's probably quite difficult for me to remember exactly what was on while I was actually here. I do remember the Harlem tap dancers, who all came – Chuck Green, and Honi Coles and those guys came over from New York – these old guys who could really dance. So, they had a show called No Maps on My Taps, I seem to remember.
And then Dance Umbrella started when I was there, which is still going to this day. And I think it was Jan Murray, who was a dance critic, and Val Bourne set up Dance Umbrella I think, shortly after I came here. So, they brought in people who had, they brought in the defectors from the Royal College that – I think it was the Royal Ballet School – there were, like, four defectors, including Michael Clark and Matthew Bourne, and they came and did their own unique dances. We brought people over from New York - Merce Cunningham and just an amazing array of different people
[10.26] And I mean, there were so many different programmes. While I was here, we had Shuji Terayama, incredible Japanese director who also made some very interesting films. And Terayama did Directions to Servants, which was an incredible show.
We brought in La Claca, which was a theatre company from Spain, from Barcelona or Catalonia. And the designer was [Joan] Miro. Again, a very beautiful show. It was like a sort of moving Miro painting. So, we had we had some incredible shows that came in. And one of the things that we also initiated when I was there was Plays Umbrella, which was a, like following Dance Umbrella, we wanted to do some plays from the Black and Asian minority communities. And so, we put on five new plays. The writers were, if I remember rightly, Mustapha Matura, Hanif Kureishi, Tunde Ikoli... Oh gosh, I can't remember who else was involved, but there were five plays, very interesting pieces of work which were put on and developed here in Studio 2. So, there was an awful lot going on. I think Samuel Beckett turned up, and there was, there were just so many different interesting people. And my job was to help David organise it and organise people's travel and accommodation and getting them here. We had a lot of support from the different embassies – the cultural attaches were very helpful. So, we got to know all the different embassies because they would support with money to pay for travel and accommodation when people turned up. And, I mean, this is all before email and before mobile phones. So basically, on the phone a lot, sending letters, you know. Luckily, I'd done a typing course, so I was proficient [laughs], but it was very, very busy, and there was an awful lot going on.
So, I did that for some time. And one of the other things I did towards the end of my tenure here was I got involved in doing a film programme. Well, we did a couple of film programmes actually, when I was here. One was, we put on Peter Greenaway's new film, which was called The Falls, and we did a three-week run of the film. But we also, because his composer was Michael Nyman, we did a number of concerts with Michael Nyman when I was here. And so, I sort of got involved in that. I ended up actually living in a flat in Michael Nyman's house [laughs]. And so, everybody got to know everybody. Everybody was local, quite local. So we did that. We did a couple of film events. We did a retrospective of Peter Greenaway stuff. And then we did this week... At the time there were some very, very good single films being shown on TV – BBC, ITV, BBC2 – and they were, they were proper films. They were, you know, in another world they would be cinema films or low budget cinema films. But the union, the ACTT, prevented them from being shown in cinemas. Everything then was shot on 16 mm. It was before digital. So, we planned a week where we could showcase the best TV filmmakers. And this was something I got very much involved in and really organised. And we showed films, which were... What we did was we arranged to show films that had been made for television, but in Studio 2 on a cinema screen. And the union wouldn't allow us to charge entry for the films. So, I suggested we could get people to pay for the Q&A afterwards. So, we had the films, we let the audience out, and then we did Q&A which people paid for. So that was the way we got round it, we showed the films for free. It was really very effective.
And Jim Allen, who wrote some films for Ken Loach, we had Jim, we had Stephen Frears came and I think it was The Hit he was showing. John Mackenzie who showed, we showed Just Another Saturday and Just a Boys Game. Neville Smith, who was a great writer, similarly, and David Hare came and showed The Imitation Game. And Richard Eyre came and showed something – I can't remember what Richard's one was – but it was, you know, quite an array of very good writers and directors who were showcased that week.
And we put together this particular leaflet that you've got out [laughs]. We got these people involved. Oh, yes, Stephen Polikoff, Peter Prince, Neville Smith, Leslie Woodhead, Richard Eyre, Peter Duffle. Yes, these were all people who were, you know, we got them to contribute to this little book that we did called Riverside Writing on Television and Film. And it was just some thoughts and memoirs about writing for TV and film. [Handling the brochure] I haven't read it since then, actually, but I edited this and we put it together and the thing about that week, what was important about that week, was a lot of important people came, including the new Head of Drama, the potential, the new potential Head of Drama at Channel 4, David Rose, who had previously in the nineteen sixties. He had run the drama department at the BBC and had brought on people like Ken Loach and a lot of these people had started under David Rose's auspices at the BBC. Cut to 1980, and David had heard through Barry Hanson, who was a trustee here, that we were doing this this event, and David came to practically everything, and it was the sort of seeds for what became Film4. Because it was like an event where a lot of the really strong directors were showcasing their stuff on film. And the principles of Film4 were being formed around that time. And it was the sort of moment when film broke from the union, and it became possible... Film 4/Channel 4 made it possible for films to be made for television, but they could also have a cinema life. And that was the breakthrough that Film4 made, and it really was a sea change in that there was the potential for an indigenous independent film scene, and Film4 started that. And I went on later to work on various of those projects as a production person, but it definitely had some of its genesis here at Riverside. So that was an important moment. And shortly after that I, at some point, switched from working for David and went to work in the press office under Erica Bolton and Jane Quinn, who were a tour de force of publicity people. And they still are. You know, they are key publicity people for the arts. And so, I worked for Erica and Jane and discovered how to do press releases. And that again was an incredible experience. I worked for them for about six months, and then I left. I left Riverside after about a year and a half to go and do a one-week film production course. I chucked in my job and did one-week film production course! And that's when I discovered that I was going to be a filmmaker. And but, yeah, you asked me where I came from. That's it!
[20:58] I'm going to bring you back to Riverside Studios. So, I believe you were here between 1976, as you said, and 1981?
Yes.
And in that sort of period, obviously, the building and the environment that Riverside Studios inhabits has changed quite significantly in that time. What would you say, I mean, just well, thinking back to your time here in that particular time period, what was it, what, in a sort of sensory way, what was it like coming into the building? What were your memories of that? What were the sounds like? And even in a sense, what did the place smell like and feel like? What was your perception of the environment at that time?
It was a very friendly place to arrive into. I think when you came into the building, the foyer was very big. And there was space in the foyer for exhibitions. And there was the cafe there, which was very important. There were plenty of places to sit and chat to people, and there was a bar at the end of this big foyer area. So, it had this very welcoming space because then the space was cut up by the sort of girders and things, and pillars around. So, it didn't feel like a big, empty space. Even though it was a very big open space, it had dividing columns and things, which made it sort of human. And there were places to lean. There was a sort of bar beside the... the kitchen was down one side, and then the tables where people sat with their food, were in the middle. And then to one side, there was a space where there was always an exhibition of some sort going on.
And there were opportunities to do little, select bits of music and things. So, at the weekend, there might be a clown or something. There was some kids' stuff going on. It was a very lively foyer. So, it was very welcoming and very sort of lively, with people bumping into each other who knew each other. A mixture of the audience and the volunteers and people who worked there. And because of that foyer, everybody used it. So, the technicians from backstage would also use the cafe. So, people crossed paths all the time.
[23:53] Would you say that the dynamic nature that you're describing there is unique or was unique to Riverside Studios, based on your experience of other organisations?
I didn't have much experience of other organisations apart from university I suppose and also the Film Festival in Edinburgh. But the thing about the foyer was that it definitely was a very welcoming space because it was big enough for everybody to meet. But also, you didn't feel like you were meeting in a big open space because there were little places in corners and places where you could go and hang out. It was very amenable to meeting people, and so it was a very sociable community space, very effective as that. But, you know, the bar was sort of at one end, so it was sort of cut off, so you didn't feel like you were sort of stuck in the pub or anything like that. It's also very bright and white with these red pillars around. And but then leading off, obviously you had Studio 1 and Studio 2, and then later, the gallery at the Crisp Road end of things.
But at the back, behind Studio 1, there was a long corridor full of – I mean, the other thing about the place - it was a rabbit warren full of little changing rooms, dressing rooms and corridors and staircases. And it was quite fun because you never quite got to the bottom of what was there. You were always discovering another room. And there were so many rooms that were available that, you know, we got people in to do band practice. We had artists and architects. Bruce McLean had a studio back here near the river. And Will Alsop, the architect, had a studio. And all these sorts of misfits and ne’er do wells who needed a space, an artistic space. There was plenty of room. And the more people who came, the more they brought interested people with them. So, it was a real, sort of mix, mixing of the arts going on. A lot of people from different artistic disciplines would be mixing in the foyer and meeting each other. And it was a really fantastic melting pot of the arts going on. And you had Ian Knox and his South African boys doing the trapeze upstairs [laughs] where the cinema was going to be. And then you had Percy and her theatre design school going on upstairs. So, there was an awful lot going on. And people were meeting each other. A lot of the people who were using the space also went to the shows. But also, the other thing is, the place did employ local people to work there, too. I mean, a famous character was Lizzie who worked in the box office. She was a kid from the Queen Caroline estate and just used to come and hang out here. And eventually she got employed and ended up running the box office. But she was a very strong character, Lizzie, and her mum or her nan were very much involved as well. And anyway, there were a number of people from the estate who used to come and work here. So it wasn't sort of exclusively sort of arty farty. It was definitely a mixture of these extraordinary performers and artists, and local people. And that was a very effective way of running the place.
[28:04] You mentioned that you started working here quite young and quite early on in your career. Just thinking about that and thinking about your own personal involvement with Riverside Studios, what sort of impact has Riverside therefore had on your life and career subsequently?
Oh, I think it's had a very, very important impact because it introduced me to such a huge range of the arts. And we were putting on everything: poetry readings, exhibitions, plays, dance, cinema, music. Everything was going on here: performance art, whatever the thing was. And you know, there were great poets coming from behind the Iron Curtain as it was then; Joseph Brodsky, and I think Vaclav Havel, who became the Czech leader, was a poet before he came. I mean, it was an incredible influence, because not only did I sort of meet or see the shows with these people but also learned how to put those things on - organised the people coming and going. So, it was incredibly useful. And these were transferable skills. Also, working in the press office was very useful because it helped me understand publicity and marketing and stuff, and why you need it.
So, all of these were very useful skills that I took with me as I got into film, and became first of all, a production person. And I got involved in production in films and location management and ultimately became a producer. And these are all... it's all about organising. And that's the job of a producer; to organise the making of a film - whatever needs to be organised. So, you organise raising the money, you organise finding the locations, you organise getting the actors together, all the things.
But I think what Riverside gave me was a very broad, overview of the arts and a very broad education of what's going on in contemporary art. I mean, I really knew what was happening in the nineteen eighties. And it was a very, very exciting time because, when I was at university, punk was happening. Actually, I think the Sex Pistols had a rehearsal room here [when Riverside was being converted into an arts centre in 1975/76]. But punk happened in front of my eyes at university, and it was sort of leaking into Riverside as well. And because, in a way, the dance that was happening was a sort of punk dance in a way - the stuff that Michael Clarke was first doing. And it I think there was a cultural storm going on. When I was at university, there was Rock Against Racism and the anti-Nazi League was around. There was a lot of sort of... i was a cultural explosion which happened with punk and its affiliation with Rock Against Racism and all of that. So that all happened. That was all happening in London at that time and Riverside was a sort of extension of that. And it was sort of bringing all the alternative theatre, music, shows, and stuff. There was a place for all of that here at Riverside. And because that was what the zeitgeist was at the time, it was a great place to be. I mean, really, it was a very exciting moment.
[32:05] Any particular shows or events or exhibitions that stick out for you personally from that period?
I think almost everything. I think the Plays Umbrella series was pretty strong. Hanif's play Mother Country was very good. And then I remember Laurie Anderson coming. And interestingly, I actually met her a couple of years ago in Greece. The Greek film director I was working with had her come and stay because she was in Greece anyway. And we were talking to Laurie about doing the music for our film. She ended up not doing it, but she was really instrumentally helpful in helping us get the film right. She read the script, and we had sort of sessions, and it was like, I know you from Riverside [laughs]. And David Gothard was at the centre of all that, because he was such a catalyst and knew all these, you know, New York agents, who had all these alternative performance artists and dancers and things. And they were a rich seam. So, there were some very interesting performers coming from the US. And I think that was a highlight for me. So Merce Cunningham and John Cage, and just very interesting people coming. The dancers from the US were incredible.
But, I don't know. I just engaged with everything that we brought. You know, Dario Fo came with Franca Rame, his wife, and was doing this two-person show. So, it's like you sort of engaged with everything. And it's difficult to have favourites. I mean, obviously a great favourite for me was Kantor and Cricot 2 because I knew them. And when they came back, it was wonderful to see them again. And I'm still in touch with Andrzej Welminski and his wife, Teresa, who continue to sort of fly the Kantor flag and bring shows to London, to the Coronet and to Rose Bruford and places ever since. And they're very sort of sub-Kantor, sort of ways of telling the sort of art theatre. So, it's difficult to have favourites, but what a range of stuff.
[34.55] You mentioned, Peter Gill and David Gothard earlier on in this conversation. There was a period of transition between Peter Gill and David Gothard. You were here during that period?
Well, they were here at the same time. I mean, they were here when Peter was artistic director. He hired David to run the rest of the programme so that Peter could get on with putting on the in-house plays. I mean, I have to say his Julius Caesar was an incredible show. That was really brilliant. That was a real highlight, actually. Peter's shows were always good. But Peter more or less hired David and then they were sort of, they were at loggerheads half the time. But David brought in the other stuff, and so there was definitely a sort of conflict there. I'm not quite sure why, because everything was complementary. I think it was envy [between them]. David never directed a play while he was here. He didn't. He was a theatre director but never directed a play ever. You know, I think he was in Peter's shadow in that respect, in as far as his own talent was concerned. But he was here. Peter and David were here at the same time. Very much so. And then, when Peter left, David became director of the place [in 1980]. I'd left by then. But the whole time I was here, Peter was in charge. So I only ever knew Riverside and with Peter in charge. And yes, David eventually took over, which was right. But he didn't direct his own plays here. And he has directed abroad, but he hasn't, I don't think David ever directed another play in this country. And that was something to do with the relationship between him and Peter.
[37.14] A couple of things you've talked about already, one was the publication that was issued by Riverside Studios that you were involved with called Riverside Writing. You talked about theatre and Peter Gill and David Gothard. There was a, there was a, in this particular edition we've got here from 1981 of Riverside Writing, there's a.....
It's the only edition. It's the only edition there ever was. It was planned to be something that would happen several times, but that's the only one that ever happened.
I really enjoyed reading this, and there's a section in the beginning, by David Leveaux, Riverside’s literary manager at the time. And I'm just going to read this out to you because it leads on to my question, if I may? It says:
‘Exclusion by censorship, whether political or prudish, is unacceptable, of course, and that is why it will continue to attract vociferous opposition and the theatre, if it is honest and if it is honest and alert only thrives by engaging in this kind of conflict with the establishment, because a more insidious and deadening exclusion comes into operation when people are prevented or forbidden from understanding or knowing the way things are’.
This is more than forty years ago this has been written. Where do you think things are now, in that respect? Do you think the productions which are being put on or generated are in keeping with that kind of challenging, brave philosophy or have things changed in some other way?
I think in some places they are. I think that it's sort of a radical mood that absolutely outlines the radical mood that was here. I wouldn't say the place was ahead of its time, but I think it was, it was tuned into an era of big change. It was wanting to be radical. And that's what it set out to do and did.
It's funny to think of David as having the grand title of literary manager [laughs], but he did. And I think there are theatres that do that. There are definitely shows that go on and that do have that radical impact still, and you see some great individual shows. But the thing about Riverside was that there was the ethos across the arts here. It wasn't just the theatre stuff, it was across the whole gamut of the arts. And it was probably the most effective true arts centre that has ever existed, because it was both international and local. And I think that its true impact was the fact that it could bring the international into a community. And, you know, everybody came as a result of that. And people were seeing things that they had never seen before. And I think the ethos that David Leveaux talks about [in the brochure’s introduction] is definitely imprinted on everything that we did here.
You've mentioned a number of names already, some big people so to speak, big in the sense of how well known they are or became. Obviously, Samuel Beckett. Hanif Kureishi and others. You also mentioned some of the more local characters, like Lizzie. You mentioned you used to like her. I was curious to know whether there are any other individuals who you have memories of while you were here?
Well, obviously Chris Harris, who was a great photographer and really developed by being here at Riverside and found his own art. He was an artist who was formed here. I think the other... it's impossible not to mention not to mention Le Cirque Imaginaire and Jean-Baptiste Thierree and Victoria Chaplin [Charlie Chaplin's daughter] who brought their wonderful Cirque Imaginaire here, which was an absolutely beautiful, beautiful show. And they came and they lived in their caravan on site and set up this very, very original circus with their children Aurelia and James, who became film stars and acting stars themselves later. They were definitely strong characters and they came every year at Christmas, for some time. And so, Jean-Baptiste and Victoria were important characters to have around, so I have strong memories of them. And Jean Baptiste was a clown. And he was a very funny original character, and he didn't speak any English but you you'd always find him giggling in some in some corner and playing some practical joke on David Gothard or something. It was good fun.
The other people... I mean, I remember Stephen Scott, who was the lighting designer. Well he was actually the electrician at first, and he became a very good lighting designer through here. And God, I mean, Barry Hanson, who was a trustee of Riverside. He was a film producer, and he had produced a wonderful, extraordinary film called The Long Good Friday which had Bob Hoskins in it and Helen Mirren. And so, Barry had some sort of infamy, but he actually brought in people who were working. It was Barry who was responsible for bringing in quite a lot of the film industry or TV industry people in to discover Riverside. So, Barry was a powerful character. I ended up working for his TV company, for Channel 4, which was another job I had quite soon after Riverside. But he was somebody I'd met through Riverside and really learned a lot from. So yeah, the place was stuffed with characters!
I think Hammersmith as an area plays a role as the setting, if you like, for Riverside Studios. How do you think Hammersmith has changed in the time that you were here?
I mean, I lived in Dalling Road down the side of Ravenscourt Park for the first nine months I was here. So, we'd walk to work and that was lovely. It's got a few corporate blocks [today]. Hammersmith mall has become created, but King Street is not much different. And the rivalry with the Lyric continues. That sort of started at the same time as I was here. But the position on the river is lovely. Just to just to walk past the bridge and go to the pub just down on Lower Mall. It's wonderful. And so, it's changed. It's, you know, obviously the area's got a bit richer, I suspect. It was very mixed when I was here, because it's a very, highly populated area, Fulham and Hammersmith you know. I think we had a captive audience here. We had a quite a big audience we could draw from. But I don't know Hammersmith so well now. When I come here, I have memories. But there also was the Chancellor's pub over the road, which we always used to retire to in early days, before we had our own bar as well. But we used to go there anyway. And there was the odd spot where you could get a chip sandwich over the road too!
You mentioned local audiences. Do you have any memories of involving the local community in some of the productions here? Or more generally?
Yes, we had big open weekends, particularly before Riverside was properly opened. There would be weekends when the place was open, and it was very much open to the community. And there would be a lot of stuff for kids put on. We would always have stuff for kids and, you know, kids shows. And I think that that was quite an important way of getting people in, to have something to do with the kids down here. And so, yeah, I think, that was something that got the local people in. There was always something for everybody going on here. So, I think that was good way of involving the community.
[46.50] Are there any elements of Riverside studios that you feel are missing compared to the period that you were active here?
Well, it's not the same. It's a different building, you know? And I think, I think the foyer that we had then was probably more welcoming in a way, because it had the whole sort of seating area was integrated into the art area a bit more. So, there wasn't a separation, you know, everybody had to go through that bit. I mean, you still have that here, but I think things have changed a bit because of health and safety and all of that stuff, and food in the right place and all that sort of stuff. It's more difficult, but I think it was a very flexible space. This is a flexible space. I'm not sure it's being used as flexibly as it could be, but it's very difficult also to replicate something that just happened organically. And it happened organically because the space was right and the people who were putting on the stuff were just being ridiculously creative. But it was also of its time. You know, that's what it was doing at that particular time. It had evolved from being a TV studio into being something else. And then it evolved, as you know, Channel 4 started using it to put The Tube [TV music programme] on and things like that. So it was always evolving. And I think that's the best thing you can expect from a space like this; that it should evolve and fit its times. And in the early nineteen eighties, it certainly fitted its time.
What difference do you think Riverside Studios has made?
Well, to me personally, a huge difference because I came here and I formed myself here! You know, it's definitely part of my growing up, and I'm sure it's had a powerful effect on a number of artists and performers and audience people. You know, I think that people who discovered it would come quite a lot and would benefit a lot from getting involved. I think, you could get close to the performers. Not just the performing space, but actually the fact that everybody went into the foyer afterwards. There wasn't a stage door that everybody would disappear out of, you had to come through the foyer to get out. And so, it was a community which involved the performers as well as the artists as well as the audience. And I think that was that made it a very interesting space. You could always converse with whoever was doing the show, you know? So, I think I think that was the sort of magic that we had then. And I know it less now because I don't live in the area anymore. So, it's more difficult for me to get here, but, and I'm doing a different job. So, different times.....
Is there anything we haven't covered that you'd like to talk about?
I think we pretty much covered everything. I'll probably remember something [crucial] as soon as we finish. But it's obviously been a very important part of my life and all the other people who are affected by it and through Riverside. There are people I've known pretty much all my working life, and still and still know. So, it's been an incredible long-term resource for me as a filmmaker. Also, as a sort of entry point into cultural life. I mean, you couldn't do better really.
It's been hugely enjoyable listening to you. Thank you very much for your time.
Thank you for letting me talk.
[Daniel Thurman] I have one question on your continuing working relationship with Ken Loach. Can that be traced back to Riverside?
Well, it can a bit. I first met Ken at the Edinburgh Film Festival when I introduced one of his films there, but he can't remember me from then! But the second time I was involved really was when Jim Allen came [to Riverside] to talk about his work that he'd done with Ken. The connection is obscure really, because I didn't meet Ken properly, I didn't start working with Ken properly until the end of 1987. And I met him properly through Working Title, who I'd worked with as a producer and location manager.
So not directly. But I think through various Riverside contacts, I got into knowing useful people in film which helped my film career trajectory. So, I worked on My Beautiful Launderette, for instance, which Hanif Kureishi wrote and Stephen Frears directed. And all of those people I'd first made contact with through Riverside.
And I remember when I was interviewed by Stephen for the job. He said “Well, you know Hanif, you know Hugo the designer because you went to dancing classes with him when you were little and you know, the production coordinator, how can I not employ you? And so, it was like that. It got you sort of an easy entrance because you knew about arts and artists, got an easy entrance into it. So, I never had a problem meeting people who I admired or wanted to work with. And I think that was one of the reasons it was easy for me to fall in with Ken when eventually I did. But there's no direct... you know, it's like Rock Family Histories, it's, there's lots of different ways in and out.
Thank you again. It's been really enjoyable.
Thank you. Pleasure.
