SH: This is the 14th of February 2025, Riverside Studios. It's 10 o'clock in the morning. My name's Susannah Herbert and I am interviewing Simon Curtis. Could you introduce yourself and briefly explain your relationship to Riverside?
SC: My name is Simon Curtis and, as a teenager, I was lucky enough to be a volunteer at the very beginning of Peter Gill's tenure. [Mobile phone rings] Sorry, I’ll turn this off. Peter Gill's tenure in 1977, I think it was, was it?
DT: 1976
So, was The Cherry Orchard 1976?
DT: That was 1978
Yeah, but then it wasn't at the very beginning then it was... (Mobile phone rings) sorry, I want to turn this off.
I read about the first production of The Cherry Orchard being in rehearsal and there were some names in that, I thought that's interesting. So, I came into this building, the Riverside, whilst they were rehearsing that and, as I remember, that was the first production. So it was when it opened and it was a sort of mayhem in this building, very, very exciting and I don't know quite how this happened, but I sort of became a sort of volunteer for a building that was, I think, understaffed and under-resourced and what I remember is that there was no photocopier in this building, so they needed someone to run up to the Xerox shop in Hammersmith Broadway to photocopy their scripts. I happily did that and I guess I just became addicted to this atmosphere and, you know, as a, it would have been in 1978, I was eighteen, I was obviously very excited to see the inner workings of it all.
I didn't realise and I knew it was special but I didn't realise quite how special it was and I so remember getting an invite to the Christmas party, the staff party in 1978 and just feeling so thrilled to be part of it and I guess I sort of, was this super keen, very enthusiastic young guy who was able to work for no money and I just became part of the building. And then the magical night I saw The Cherry Orchard actually in performance and it literally blew my mind, I mean, the production was gorgeous, a definitive production I'd say, and to this day I can still remember every nuance of every performance in it and I've worked with some of the actors subsequently and we always talk about it and, you know, seeing Stephen Rea and Leigh Lawson and Judy Parfitt and Julie Covington and Caroline Langrishe, it was breathtaking and I would work as an usher, so I got to see it, I probably saw that 18 or 20 times, so that was very, very exciting.
And then I just was part of the, I didn't quite know in retrospect how it quite happened but I sort of was working and there was a brilliant season called the Plays Umbrella, has that come up? which was, I guess now way ahead of its time but it was an attempt to present diverse writers and I so remember that's where I first met Hanif Kureishi and Tunde Ikoli and Mustapha Matura and the other directors, John Burgess and Michael Joyce and so on and that was thrilling to be part of too.
And then, the magical day I got the phone call from Peter Gill asking me to be his Assistant Director on Measure for Measure and so I was actually able to be in the rehearsal of that production that was Helen Mirren and George Baker and so on and that was, I did subsequently, this is before I went to university at Bristol, but I would without a shadow of doubt, say I learned more in this period in this building than I ever did at university and to see that play created, that production created, I should say, was a great privilege and an extraordinary education.
And, two memorable things were that George Baker was playing the Duke, which I think I'm right in saying is the fourth largest part in the entire Shakespeare canon and he was not great on his lines, so I so remember at the first preview being forced to be a prompter and on the very first performance, they put me in the lighting rig above the stage, so I could look down on that and I was like so terrified I'd have to shout out and I think I had to prompt him 40 or 50 times on that thing and then on the second performance they tried to reposition me, so I was down under the seating area, there was an entrance onto the stage and I could only see part of the stage and I so remember trying to sort of listen for unexpected pauses and there was suddenly this unexpected pause before a line of Helen Mirren's and I shouted out her line and I subsequently realised that had completely thrown her and it was a pause she was taking and I was terrified and I so remember her being so generous to me for the mistake I made.
And in fact she then asked me to be her PA assistant at that time and I would go to her house and do her fan mail with her and all of that and then subsequently, decades later, I was the director in a film and I remember being actually at a film festival in Japan and we were, you know, being photographed and she said it's a long way from Crisp Road, isn't it, or something. It was just, in retrospect, the most magical environment, you know and, to anybody at any age, it would be mind-blowing, but to a young man, seeing, you know, Miro the artist coming in, or Samuel Beckett and Peter saying, you know, he likes to talk to young people, go and ask him if you can watch the rehearsals. He was directing the San Quentin Workshop in Endgame here and he, Beckett, allowed me to sit in his rehearsal to watch him directing Endgame, you know, which is still, I can hardly believe it now, and, it just felt at that time it was the place to visit and you never knew who was going to walk through the door.
So it was an extraordinary, very brilliant time and, you know, a testament to Hammersmith Council, whoever was financing it, and we just didn't know how lucky we were. So that's really it.
[8:14] SH: Thank you. You explained how you first became involved with Riverside Studios, but can you remember your first visit here because if you were a local, did you walk past before you ventured in?
No, as I say, I seem to remember reading in the Evening Standard that there was this show being created so I just poked my head in and was making a lot of lemon teas for people and I mean now I can't quite work out how I went from that to being part of it, but I think they were very short staffed and welcomed interest from young people, I think.
Can you tell me - you were at school nearby?
Yes, I was at Saint Paul's, the other side of Hammersmith Bridge.
OK and did any of your fellow schoolboys or your generation share your interest or were you an outlier?
It was sort of actually really at the time after school before, you know, the old-fashioned gap year. There became two gap years because I really liked being here so much. But I think Greg Hilty was at the same school, I think, I don't know, but he wasn't really involved at that time I don't think.
OK, so you brought yourself here. You didn't need a paid job, so you were able to work.
Well, I did, I was working for paid jobs at the same time,
[9:48] And can I have your first sensory impressions? The building has changed since then.
Yeah, I mean, it felt much more industrial than it does now, of course there was still the factory next door and there was still very much the bones of the television studio. And I used to love the cinema as they called it upstairs. Was it called the cinema? It was basically a sound dubbing suite I think at the time, and that's where we rehearsed the Measure for Measure, and it's actually where I was able to have my 21st birthday party.
[00:10:20.04] Tell me about that.
There wasn't really much to say about it except it was just in that wonderful room and I was able to bring a lot of people in.
And what did it smell like? What did it sound like? What if you were describing it to somebody who couldn't...
I don't really remember the smell, I’d just say it was more industrial, it wasn't like comfortable but I so remember, you know, it felt like hallowed ground going upstairs to that corridor where all the offices were and I just loved, you know, hanging out, having a cup of tea with the actors and so on, you know, Michael Elphick is a phenomenal guy and he's no longer with us and just talking to them and learning, and I think, you know, I still love working with actors and I think I learned a lot about, you know, socialising with actors at that time as well as the work itself.
You've touched on what's distinctive about Riverside Studios, but can you elaborate?
Well, it was a multi artform venue, so, you know, there were talks and you know, strange things now like, in retrospect, there was an architect called Will Allsop who was attached and he, there was a sort of exhibition, I sort of assisted, working with him on it where he would invite local people to come in to describe their fantasy home, and he would do a sort of drawing or a floor plan of their fantasy home. In retrospect, I can't quite see what that would achieve, but, you know, so there wasn't just theatre people or just film people or literary people and also I think a lot to do with David Gothard, there was a real interest in other cultures and European talents, you know, so there was the.... was it Kantor, the Polish guy, seeing him at work or...What was the name of the company that did La Claca? [La Claca Theatre Company of Catalonia] that the Miro designs were, but you know, productions from totally other cultures and which is so exciting to contrast with, you know, the more expected British shows. But I remember seeing, I think was it a Joint Stock production of The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists where, you know, the, the very young Harriet Walter was in it. I so remember that or then one night Julie Covington did a concert, of seeing her singing it was, Basil Bunting, the poet, I mean it was just, I mean in retrospect it was like a treasure trove of brilliant people doing stuff they were passionate about and all under the umbrella of this building, I mean, I so remember seeing many, many times Brian Cox as De Flores in The Changeling. Yeah.
So clearly everything had gathered here. Do you know now why?
Well, because there was, there's the stages, there was money for it, and there were some visionaries curating it, Peter [Gill] and David [Gothard], I suppose.
Would you talk more about them?
Well, yeah, I mean, Peter was very much in his element because at that time, I don't think he'd travelled really outside, he lived in the George Devine house down the other side, this side of the river, but the other side of Hammersmith Bridge and he just basically held court, so, you know, there was this like ongoing conversation, whether it was in the rehearsal room or in the canteen or the cafe or whatever they used to call it then. He was a great storyteller and I think he directed in those days by telling stories a lot of the time, you know, ran it with great charisma and it very much had a vision for being both international and local, if that makes any sense. You know, he was very aware of the people from the local, you know, literally next door like Lizzie, has she been mentioned? And she was a great character and Willie Milliken, has he been mentioned? I became great friends with him, who was, I guess he was a road sweeper, but had such a passion for the arts and we used to go and see plays a lot of the time together, very, very fond of him. And then Hanif Kureishi was sitting at the till at the bookshop and David Gothard was this maverick element of it all. Always had a passion for something and a great staff, you know, Rebecca O'Brien, Sarah Wedderburn, have you spoken to her? She was David's assistant then, she'd be a very, very good person to talk to. And Claire Street, Erica Bolton, has she been spoken to? She did the PR. I mean, it was just, I feel very fond of all those people. They were part of his gilded team, that was, you know, creating something really wonderful.
[00:16:13.02] Can you tell me more about Lizzie?
I really don’t know much much more to say. I mean I just remember her, I can't remember what her role was, but she was very much a representative of the local community on Crisp Road, a sort of interface, I would say between them and this building, and, you know, hopefully she, you know, was a bridge to welcome people into it.
And what about Willie? I have heard about him, but not much.
Yeah, I haven't seen him for years, but he would come here every day and make himself part of all the conversations and all of that. And he was a phenomenal character.
He was a street sweeper.
I believe so, yes. But I know so, yes, he was, yeah.
And did he work inside the building as well?
No, I don't believe so. He just was part of it. It was his spiritual home.
So, we've talked about how Riverside gave you an intimation of your future, I suppose. Would it be fair to say that that changed your life?
Yeah, I would say it was a, I mean, considering I was 18 when I walked in the door, it was life-changing in a way, and I remember there was an actor called Hugh Thomas who was in, played Lucio in Measure for Measure. And he basically said, if you want to be a director, you've got to say you want to be a director. I remember that advice very much and, you know, I met a lot of people here, including someone who introduced me to my future wife. So, you know, it's extraordinary how different things have happened, you know.
Can you talk about your most memorable, you know, experiences here, by experiences I mean either a production or people or conversations. I mean, you've given us a lot already, but I'm asking you to select.
I don't know, I mean I would say the definitive moment was sitting watching the dress rehearsal of The Cherry Orchard and my mind being blown by the beauty of that production and everything about it. So that would be, that would, I mean, it's probably still my favourite moment ever sitting in the theatre.
To those of us who weren't there, tell us why.
I don't know because it was very much curated for that space, so it was a very wide open stage, very, I mean there wasn't a lot of furniture or a lot of set, it was all a very wooden stage, but just taught me that, you know, what theatre at its best is, is brilliant actors in a brilliant play and you know that is arguably one of the greatest ever plays, so it was a very clever idea to launch this place with that production and the cast was a lot of people who were either on the cusp of major careers or it was just very, very well cast and a joy to behold.
And at the time you didn't know that much about theatre..
Well I was, I was definitely a bit of a theatre nerd as a teenager so yeah, no, so I mean, I wouldn't say I discovered theatre, but I definitely loved it.
And what about memorable, memorable conversations? I think I'm pushing away at this because you've come up with more, you've mentioned Hugh Thomas saying, say you want to be a director. Were there other, other moments?
I can't think of anything specific when you ask that, but the ongoing dialogue with Peter Gill and hearing his opinions and take on politics, the world, drama, theatre, hearing about his history at the Royal Court where I subsequently worked, you know, it was all an education, simple as that. And I always felt that I was an assistant director here and then, you know, in my twenties was an assistant director in lots of other productions, and a lot of my contemporaries were sort of eager to get on with their own work, but I had a real instinct that every rehearsal room you were in was a lesson in itself, you know, good, bad, exciting or dull. It was all an education and I remain very, very grateful for that so it's not that I can think of any specific conversation in that way, but they were all invaluable.
You talk about Gill directing by telling stories, how does that work?
I can't really describe it, I mean, but you know, there's a lot of talking in his rehearsals compared to some other directors and, you know that's his method in a way, so I can't really, I mean, you have to ask someone else, you know, an actor perhaps, but, he has a vision for it and you know, it works.
And what was his vision?
Well, I mean every production has a different vision.
But his vision is the man at Riverside.
Well, I mean, you know, as I say, I mean I think I've said already that, you know, he had a real appetite to be very ambitious, to provide the people of Hammersmith and London the greatest work in the world, whether it's an international company visiting, whether it's a world class theatre production or some local event.
And how did that meld with David Gothard?
I think he was an internationalist. He was the one who'd go off to Hungary or wherever and find these productions to bring in. So, he travelled, whereas Peter remained resolutely in Hammersmith.
And of the two, did you find yourself between them or varying in one way or the other?
I didn't think of it in those terms at all. But obviously, you know, Peter was a world class director, so that is, you know, I was thinking, I was looking at that, it's a model in a way.
[23:02] How has this area, Hammersmith changed?
Well, I mean, you know the answer to that as well as I do. I mean, the, you know, the building we're in now with the very expensive apartments on top and, you know, the restaurants and so on, it's a much more, I don’t know if gentrified is the right word but a much more, you know, it's a much more desirable, in conventional terms, place to live I think, but I just loved Hammersmith in those days because I think the Lyric was just about to open in its new form, but you know, the Hammersmith Odeon, Hammersmith Palais, Riverside, I mean, you know, that was, in those days, you really could buy a ticket for £5 to see Elton John at the Hammersmith Odeon, you know, I mean it was extraordinary in retrospect.
And the social mix which you mention when you talk about the locals coming in, was it very different?
I don't know because I haven't really been here that much recently but, in modern terms, it probably wasn't as diverse but, you know, Hammersmith, there's always been an extraordinary mixture, hasn't it, of different areas and different demographics.
My next question is about local youth, which I suppose includes you.
Suppose so, yeah, though I was more Wandsworth than Hammersmith but yeah, I don't know much about that to be honest.
I meant to ask whether Riverside Studios has provided young people with an introduction to art, the arts. Were you the youngest to come here, do you think, the youngest or did you feel you were part of a cohort of a generational cohort who were welcome?
I mean, I think it was a very welcoming place, by definition, and I don't really know the answer to that. I mean there were other young people around, obviously, but, I think more important than that was that, anybody of any age, of any background felt welcome to come and see something here and you never knew what you'd stumble on and what impact that would have on you, do you know what I mean? So I think that was what was really important, it wasn't like some places like the Royal Court used to have a young people's group or whatever, I don't think there was that here as I recall, but, you know, as I say, I really think it was a building for everybody and that's a very, very important thing.
How was that created, how were people inspired to come here by putting on The Cherry Orchard, you know, why was Peter's vision so attractive to so wide a demographic?
Well, because it was brilliant and not remotely patronising, so, you know, in those days theatre tickets weren't, I mean they were expensive for some people I'm sure, but nothing like they now are and I'm sure there were all kinds of deals for, I think was there a deal for local people even? I don't even know but in the way there's some now are, local residents have prices, but I think that was, I don't know, I've never heard anyone say this but I'm now in retrospect thinking, let's just give people the ,the world class productions on their doorstep and if you build it they will come and that is the best thing of all, you know, so if someone stumbles in they're not just seeing The Cherry Orchard, they're seeing a brilliant production of The Cherry Orchard and, I think, you know, I know it happens even more now, but he was mindful of famous actors because they can bring people in and famous actors wanted to do it because they wouldn't get paid much but they would be here for three months and be in something great.
So that feeds and so I don't know, at that time, who the magnets were, Judy Covington was very, very famous at that time. I mean, Brian Cox now would sell out just because he was in Succession but then he was just, and Helen Mirren was, you know, she wasn't an unknown, I mean she was well known, so I mean, that kind of casting, George Baker I think was a sitcom star, do you know what I mean, so you can use actors as a magnet to bring people in I think.
[28:02] I'm going to ask you when you left because you mentioned university and you've also mentioned the Royal Court but I'd like to know more.
Actually I do remember my gap year became two gap years and I managed to get some other jobs to sort of subsidise me through that time but I remember thinking and actually I remember having this conversation with Peter Gill saying, perhaps this is so exciting, this being part of this, maybe I won't go to university and he was not pleased to hear me say that and said I really should go to university. And in fact Michael Joyce, who was one of the directors who worked here in the plays Umbrella lived in Bristol where I went to university and I couldn't get any student accommodation so Peter suggested to Michael that I was his tenant and so that gave me somewhere to live in Bristol and also Michael was another huge influence on me and when I left university, I was lucky enough to get a job at the Royal Court.
So you were continuing to direct while at university?
I was, yeah, and you went to I think a lot of the confidence of that was having been here, you know.
And you went to the Royal Court directly and was Peter there?
No, he was long gone, he was here. There was another regime but there was, in those days, there was the regional trainee young director scheme, which I know still exists in a more vulnerable state but then it was a phenomenal gift really and because they would, TV companies would pay the salary of an assistant director to train at the theatre, and I was very, very lucky to get that but probably when I had the interview, my experience at Riverside would have impressed them, you know, so it would have helped me get that.
[30:08] We've talked about theatre but your career has gone on to embrace film and other medium. Can you talk about that?
Well, as a teenager, I was all theatre. I wasn’t like a lot of the people who worked in film. I was very much obsessed by theatre but, in retrospect, as I say, with Riverside, you know, because it was, had the bones of a TV studio, there were people always talking about Doctor Who and all of that and, you know, there were films, they did show films, yeah, so I mean, I can't really trace that back to here necessarily.
And you've mentioned Hanif Kureishi. So he was working here?
Yeah, there was a bookshop on the corner of the building. I mean, again, it seems like extraordinary and he and I definitely met then and stayed in touch and he also went to the Royal Court and that led to film.
And so would you say that it was quite permeable, the reading literature, film, poetry, you would be experiencing them all here.
Yeah, but when I think back on those days, it's theatre and theatre making that is my biggest memory. Rehearsals, auditions, casting, a play during the run, people coming to see, you know, suddenly there was Diane Keaton coming to see a production, you know, yeah, that's my memory of it.
I was going to ask about that because we've talked about the making of art here, the audiences, would people who had appeared here then come back and listen and watch things?
I presume so, I don't really particularly remember that, but I do remember that people came. It was a very desirable place to come.
And as an usher, were there things that you had to handle? Did people walk out ever?
I don't have any stories about that.
You were transfixed. Do you have anything else you want to add because I feel that you've been very open and...
I don't think so. I just think that all of us who were here at that time were blessed beyond our wildest imagination. So, I felt very lucky because actually, when you think about the late 1970s. That was a bleak time in terms of the economy and the three day week was after that, wasn't it, but that sort of vibe and yet in the midst of that, there was still the possibility of opening a building next to the Thames that became this artistic powerhouse and that was a great gift to not only the people who worked there and the audiences but to the city and to the country and, you know, I look around and I don't see so much of that anymore and so that is heartbreaking and that means there will be less people coming through the system who will then go on to be creators of great art, you know.
As I say, I'm tremendously grateful to have been able to be part of it, tremendously grateful to everyone who was there and everyone or every company or council that valued it and financed it, you know, it was a great gift.
There are germs of the future in what happened in the 70s. I think if you look around, you'll see a lot of heirs of the old Riverside.
Heirs meaning?
For example, The Bush or...
But The Bush was concurrent.
Yes, sorry, this isn't really an oral history interview anymore, it's me talking. But I suppose what I'm getting at is some of the things which are radical there have become mainstream.
Like?
Much more emphasis on audience, building audiences, youth opportunities may not be like a one-off but they're built into the funding of any arts organisation, internationalism ditto, so stuff which might have been really far out is now actually mandatory.
Interesting, yeah. I mean of course, The Bush at that time was really thrilling in the pub, you know, the room above the pub and you go and sit in this little room and you felt part of the play, and again, you look back on the people who wrote and appeared in those plays at that time and it was mind-blowing, I mean, I used to love going there on a Sunday evening.
[35:29] DT: I have a question. You talked about Riverside being an education. Is that only in retrospect that you've realised that, or at the time, did you know you were growing?
Oh no. I remember thinking one day in a rehearsal room - that's opened my eyes to a way of being and a way of working.
DT: And how did you... How were you taking that out and using it?
Well, as I say, when I went to university, I had the confidence to.
DT: At the time, I mean when you left Riverside for the day. What were you doing to stoke that fire?
I don't know. I suppose I felt like I'd been given a magic ticket to be part of a community of London-based theatre makers. I suppose, I mean, you know, just a minnow, but it gave me a confidence to be part of it and I, you know, I think that's what, you know, I really believe in young people being given those entrees because I think if they get in those entrees, then they can build a career on that, you know, if they're the right person.
DT: It's interesting cos theatres now, you know, they often talk in a glib way about theatre for everyone and but Peter realised that...
Yes.
DT: Without being so self-conscious and manufactured.
Yes, I think that's right. Yeah, that's a good... I think that's well put. But I think one of the problems with our business at the moment is, even though there seem to be a lot of productions, there just aren't nearly as many. So, like the Royal Court would have a new play upstairs, and new play downstairs every six weeks. The Bush would do a new play every six weeks, so mathematically there were more opportunities for everybody.
And now, of course, you know, there's still work done, but it's the, just mathematically there just isn't as many entrances, you know.
[37:38] DT: Yes. And when you went from here to the Royal Court, did you miss the Riverside ethos and atmosphere? Did you find it elsewhere?
I don't know. It's just that every building has its own atmosphere, depending on the personalities and all of that. And, you know, the Royal Court in the 1980s was an extraordinary magnet for people as well. So, yeah, and it was, you know, Caryl Churchill and, you know, and you would look at those actors on that stage, you know, Lesley Manville, Gary Oldman, Alan Rickman, you know, and it's like so... Again, that was, that was in retrospect, that was a well-financed operation, I mean they didn't feel it at the time, but compared to now, it was. So, you know, you just look back on different theatres have different periods of, you know, halcyon days, and you can't really, don't really know it at the time, you know, And I, but, I remember doing a bit of work at the National Theatre Studio when Peter ran that. So, we did stay in touch, but I can't remember what I was...
DT: Before I let Susanna wrap up, I just wanted to add as an aside, The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists. The stage manager on that production was Danny Boyle. I don't know if you were aware?
I think I probably was, because I was then his assistant at the Royal Court. But I'd forgotten that - that was a bit Bill Gaskill, yeah. But I remember so much seeing... I seem to remember Harriet playing a boy in that, and that was, and then realising after she was Harriet, she was Harriet. But that was a great production. But that was a touring production, I think, of Joint Stock, wasn't it? Yeah.
SH: A question about if a gap year kid wanted to do what you did. Where would they go now?
Well, I think everywhere it's security conscious, and it's much harder than it was in those days just to sneak in somewhere, do you know what I mean? So, but I think, and I think that is a very big problem. I think that, you know, I think entry, you know, way entry points are few and far between, and I think that is a great problem. But I think, you know, there are youth groups, there are theatres that.... And you know, being an usher actually is not a bad way because you get paid to see the play and you can smell the building, you know, so, I mean there's that, but then in some ways this generation is luckier than we were: if they want to be filmmakers, they can just make a film on their phone, you know, whereas in my day, the equipment was very expensive and hard to get hold of, you know. So, but I do worry about the lack of opportunities and the lack of entry points, I think that is a very serious issue.
SH: Yeah. Although I understand a lot of the waiters and catering staff here are playwrights.
Good. Yeah, yeah.
SH: Well, thank you very much indeed, Simon.
Great.
