Interview Transcript
OK, so it's the 19th of February 2024. We're here in Hammersmith at Riverside Studios. Trevor Laird - thank you for joining us.
My pleasure.
I'm going to ask you a few questions, if I may, about your reflections concerning your time at Riverside Studios, other things related to that. So if I can just start by asking you about, if you could just tell us about how you first became involved with Riverside Studios
Well, involved - interesting. But, first of all, how I, how I even heard about Riverside Studios is interesting, very important part to me of a career, now, practically 50 years old, as a, as an actor, you know, And, you know, not famous actor, but a working actor, which is the next best thing: the kids are eating. You know, you know, I remember when I was a kid at the Anna Scher Children's Theatre – and Anna passed recently, so I, I big up Anna – you know, you know I, I decided, I realised that a kid like me could become an actor, you know, and, and I wanted to be an actor, and I did a couple of TV things as a 16 year old, and I wanted to be a proper actor, and I started buying the Guardian. I thought that's what actors did, you know? And then once a week, we bought The Stage as well, you know? And that's what we did. We went...
Anyway, I remember reading an article in the Guardian about the new theatre, Riverside Studios. Must have been 75 or 6, must have been 6, I suppose. And, you know, Peter Gill whose name I'd heard, he was a famous director from the Royal Court who, who was taking it over as artistic director, and he'd just done the first play, which I believe was a Chekhov, it might have been The Cherry Orchard, but, you know, and there was a review of it, and I thought, blimey, that sounds really interesting, you know, really interesting review and so on, and thought, bloody hell, Riverside Studios. I, the name had sort of rung in my ear before because, you know, I'd heard that. You know, I I'm from Islington, and, you know, a lot of the punk rock thing happened around me. I wasn't a punk rocker myself, but, you know, around the corner from me at the Angel was the Damned living in a house and then up the road in Camden Town, the Clash. And you know that idiot John Lydon and his lot down in Finsbury Park. And, you know, so I was in the middle of all that that was all kicking off, you know, in 75-76 and we'd heard that the Pistols had been rehearsing up in Hammersmith. At this point, it was our studio, was that part of the BBC or something? Some film studio? Anyway, it came back again. Peter Gill took it over.
And anyway, so on we go, and then involved in forming a theatre company, you know, called the Black Theatre Cooperative. I was at the, the Royal Court Theatre, and one of the stage managers, Charlie Hanson, came up to me and he said, Look, I've got this play you'd be brilliant for, you know? You know, and have a look at it, but we've got a form a company because no one, we realised I work with the, certain Caribbean writers and we realised when we send the scripts to theatres, people can't understand it. So we formed this company to kind of do readings, you know? And so we always read the play to prospective theatres, and so on. And now we've decided, hey, why don't we actually start a theatre company? We've got this play and it's about young Black kids in England and we want to do it.
So they sent it to me and I read it. I thought, oh, this is interesting and suggested a couple of friends of mine from Anna Scher’s, you know, who could be useful. And, in the end, it was practically all the the four kids were cast from Anna Scher’s, including me. And then there's a couple of other, you know, adults in the play as well. So then, suddenly we did this play and, and it just went off like a rocket. Before that plays about people from Caribbean or, you know, or, or, or about African heritage, as I would say, were mostly about people reminiscing about their homeland in the Caribbean. They'd come here to England, you know, and realised that the streets weren't paved with gold as they'd always thought they, it might be when they were back home, and actually, it was quite oppressive. And so often times, plays by Black playwrights were, people that were born in a colonial setting, whatever island it might be, were about dreaming of going home, and why did I come here, etcetera? But this was first.
Actually, it was the second. The one I was doing at the Royal Court, which was called The School Leaver, was about a young hooligan who runs the school, he's a bully. Then he leaves school, and has to go out into the real world. And he realises, oh, it's a whole different ball game, and I played that role, and that's probably why Charlie Hanson gave me the script, for Welcome Home, Jacko. So it was about kids from here, and it suddenly took the whole Black experience thing in a different direction it’s about young kids born here. Suddenly the seventies, they got interested in that, riots happened in the end of the seventies and so on, with kids refusing to be, you know, bowed down like perhaps their parents had before, because they were born and educated here. And, and so this play was kind of about that, slightly ahead of its time.
Anyway, we're doing this play. Everyone loved it. We got transfers everywhere. And one day this guy turns up, long hair glasses, you know, a bit of a crazy. Who's this guy? David Gotthard. David Gotthard worked here at Riverside Studios. And if Peter, Peter Gill was like the queen bee, like, it's like a beehive, he was here protected. And, he was like his soldier, you know, bee soldier, he'd go out looking for things, David. He, he was everywhere, you know, turning up at theatres, any show that he read about or heard about, he'd go and see it, you know? So anyway, he came to see us, and afterwards he came up to us and he said, look, love this show. We'd like to have it at Riverside Studios.
Riverside Studios. That bell rang in my head again. You know what I mean? Yeah. And we were all up for that. Of course. You know, Riverside was, by then, a famous theatre. It's probably 78 by now, yeah, actually, probably 79. We were talking about Quadrophenia that finished in November of 78, we finished shooting that film. So it would have been 79 because I did the play afterwards, and so it was 79. We turn up here at Riverside Studios, Studio Two as it was then, to do the play, the smallest studio and the first performance, the boss came down, Peter Gill, to have a look at what was going on, obviously, to see this young theatre company. And, afterwards I'm in the bar, we've done the show, he collars me and he says, listen, he goes, it's very, very interesting the work you guys are doing. But, you know, have you thought about doing some work on your, your voice? I mean, you know, you, you, you, you're very good. But we could do some work, you know, technically.
Who's this talking to me? You know? I mean, I'm a, I'm a bad, rough working class kid who's been in movies and, you know, a cult, bit of a cult figure, you know. And then I loved Peter before that, and as the years went by, he's become, really, I would say, now I'm 66 years old, the key, you know, artistic, if you like influence, in terms of technical. He took us to the National Theatre to do Shakespeare and stuff, you know? And we had all the top voice coaches in. And then, you know, you learn about your acting. As you know, a great actor said to me when I was 16 years old and the film that I did as a kid, you know, you don't learn anything from drama school, so don't worry about all that. You learn to act by doing it. Keep your ears open, listen to the other top professional actors you might be lucky enough to work with, and the directors. And my biggest advice to you, Trevor, he said that - this is Jonathan, well, now, Sir Jonathan Price - you know my biggest advice to you, Trevor, he said, is take all the jobs you can, work as widely and as varied as you can and keep your ears open and learn.
And from that point of view, Peter Gill decided that he wanted to be interested in young Black actors. He had the Plays Umbrella here after he saw that play we did, Welcome Home, Jacko, which was a series of Black plays which he commissioned. Some of them were already written about young Black kids in England. You know, he, he encouraged us to do stuff. You know, we did Black Jacobins, a play in 1986 here, which was written based on the great book {The Black Jacobins, 1938}, historical tome by the great CLR James from Trinidad: historian and a political activist, who wrote this book about the only successful slavery vault, which was in, San Domingo, now known as Haiti, Haiti. They changed the name after they beat Napoleon, you know what I mean, to get their freedom, which is literally what happened in 1804. And we did that play here, because Peter Gill was, you know, he was open. He was like an umbrella, literally. And he had the Dance Umbrella. So we were stationed here, and then after we did the play, he then offered us: would you like to be based at Riverside Studios? We'd give you office space. We'll help you out for nothing. Cause we, I want to help, you know, you guys progress. So we were based here.
And then there was the dancers. There was Michael Clarke doing stuff. They were in the, in the bookshop, which used to be out where the front door is now. It's a bit disorientating for me coming back here because everything's changed around. There was a little bookshop, and in that bookshop was a quiet little kid of, you know, Pakistani heritage who used to work in the bookshop, you know, and we saw this guy and we thought, you know, he sat all on his own in there, and we used to go in as loud kids of West Indian/African heritage. You alright, mate? Yeah. Yeah. And he was a quiet little guy, you know. About a year later, one of my colleagues, also a friend of mine, Mark Wingard, who was in Quadrophenia. He said, no, I'm doing this play down at the Soho, you know, uh, in Soho, not Soho Theatre, it was called, that little theatre was called - oh, I can't remember. It was in the basement, they used to do lunch time stuff, but Soho Theatre was what it developed into when they got that building. And he said, I'm doing this little play down there about two skinheads. Some, you know, crazy plan. I went there. He's that young guy from the bookshop, he's a writer. Hanif Kureishi, by the way, who then goes on to, as we all know, writes novels, mostly that he wrote a couple of plays at first, novels becomes famous because, you know, one of our great cultural icons as he is now. So he was working in the bookshop.
There was a young fellow called Ernesto Leao, working in the the, the, the in the cafe, serving food. I got to know him. Turns out his family, he was brought up in Scotland a little. Well, this guy's got a Scottish accent, but he was from Chile. His dad was a Chilean dissident who, they had to escape from Chile, you know, because you know, you know, Allende and all those guys in Chile, the dictator was after him, you know, and ended up in Edinburgh. He ends up down here, you know, working in Riverside Studios.
We become friends. He starts a thing called Art Throb. Art Throb was like raves, you know, the old dance music raves, except it had a cultural element. After an hour, two hours of dancing, stop. A poet would get up and read their new poems. Or I met Andrea Levy there, you know, she’s reading a chapter from her first novel. You know, and it was all about encouraging the arts, you know, but, but within, you know, a rave dance scene. He started that, you know, Now he works with bands, I don't know, I haven't seen a few, but then he started working in the music business and stuff.
So my point is, Riverside Studios was just like this mix, this soup, so much going on. And Peter just puts this, put like an umbrella over it to support all these young people who were trying to do things artistically at the end of the 1970s. And it was just a great time, you know?
And then we went on, we were here, and we did plays here, and then people would come down. Ben Zephaniah - God rest his soul again - you know, we turned up, like 1980 or 81 this young Rasta kid from Birmingham with his Birmingham (accent). And there was this. oh, he's a performance poet Oh, come in. What's going on? You know what I mean? And, and he was always hanging around and we would be doing plays. And I directed plays, got into directing plays here, did a couple of plays here.
And, I directed one for the Black Theatre Company, one that I produced myself. And, so Riverside really, really, really, really important in my history, as I say, of being a working actor for nearly 50 years and my kids: thank you very much. Anyway, yeah, is there anything?
[13.23] So, as you've noticed, the, the design and space of Riverside Studios has changed in the time that you initially started working here. Just thinking back to that time. can you possibly describe, just your sense of walking into Riverside studios in that time period? Some of the sort of sensory [responses], just think in terms of, you know, what the smell was like of the studios. What it sounded like, what the spaces were like. And just as an environment, what it was like to, to inhabit as a performer and as, later on, as a director as well.
Well, I will say, and, even from that original Guardian article that was a big thing about the review of, of The Cherry Orchard, I think. You know, Studio One, massive space, and Studio Two, a bit smaller, but still big space, originally film studios, or I think, or certainly BBC TV studios of some sort, which were transformed into theatre spaces at that time.
So, you say, when we came in the front entrance, which was right round the back, Crisp Road, you know, which was round the back. Now the entrance is right up front, facing the bridge on the side of the river and everything, but then it was right around the back and we'd come in that way, that was the front. And the bookshop was right there where Hanif was, and we'd go in. And it was like, it did have, I remember, a kind of a touch, of a feel about, like, a BBC-type studios, and it definitely had a feel of somewhere that had been transformed into what it is. And it wasn't actually originally what it now was. Do you know if you can imagine how, that feeling?
And, and speaking technically as an actor, by 86. and having done a lot of Peter's exercises and realising how much, you know, technical and speaking ability was in putting across point intellectually, the, in the theatre. Peter is a very, he's all about meaning, psychology, meaning, what is going on intellectually in the play? I mean, some people are all about movement or just, you know, flashy lights or, you know, whatever young directors now are into. But he was very much about meaning, understanding, you know, so therefore, your voice is very important. You know, you’re the way, you know, the half tones, the tones, how you say a line is very important as to the meaning, and so on.
So technically speaking, Studio One was quite difficult, you know, because it's big, and you had to be able, you can't shout, not if you want to get meaning across - that's like a hammer. Peter used to say things like, you know, you know, we're not a hammer. You have to be like a laser beam when you speak. It's precise, you know, And, so it was somewhat difficult. Studio Two, a lot better because Studio One was massive, I think about 750 seats in that massive great warehouse of a place, and you'd be down the bottom on the stage bit. And, so from that point of view, and also as a director then, actually, you know, how do you get the actors to move around that massive space so that the, the audience are engaged and they're not thinking, oh, this is miles away. You couldn't just have people sitting there, you know, because it would just be boring. They're miles away, so that, you know, so from that point of view also, you know, you had to consider things.
But overall, as I say, even though it was clear that it was a space which had been transformed from what it was, and so we were making the best of what we had, rather than something that was specially built. So, you know, still all the different people, all the different dancers, you know, musicians, actors, you know, we’re all under this umbrella that Peter put up for us, and Dave Gotthard, and so it was still very exciting, even though the building, as I say, had a bit of a mustiness, a sort of an old vibe, you know, old brown wood sort of vibe about it. Do you know what I mean? But still, it was, it was a happening place, really happening. Fantastic spot. And then they opened the cinema, of course, upstairs, as well, to boot, with later on, so.. And there was rehearsal rooms upstairs in the offices. We were upstairs, where all the people, you know, the, you know, nerve centre of the building was the press, the pub, the production managers, you know, and so on and all hung around upstairs and then above that there was the cinema, I think, and the rehearsal room. Fantastic times.
[18.20]What would you say is distinctive or unique about Riverside Studios?
Well, I would say, certainly, the unique thing back in our time, which was, you know, the end of the 70s, first half of the 80s. The last, well, actually, to be fair, the last show I did here was in 1997. Princess Di died in rehearsals. So it was, you know, the the 1997. And, but mostly I was here the end of the 70s, first half up to 86 say, or 85-6 of the 80s. So, you know, that's seven or eight years there. And that at that time, the most distinctive thing about, for me anyway, about Riverside Studios was the cutting edge nature of the work that was being done. Peter was always a director, kind of ahead of his time. He was down in the Royal Court and so on. And then he was writing his own plays as well by then and then, of course, he went and took over the National Theatre Studio and brought us all there with him as well, you know what I mean? So you know, he was always, you know, exploring the the, you know, the outer en, the pushing the edge of the envelope of theatre.
What I say is pushing the edge of the envelope of theatre, that is the psychological side. You know, the conscious side, you know, side of it rather than flashy lights, or, you know, moving electronic sets or whatever. You know, theatre’s about ideas. Theatre, that's what Peter would always say. He had a great thing he used to say to us on the first day of rehearsal, which was ‘There is a part of a writer which goes from their heart down their arm through the pen and onto the page, missing their head entirely. That's what we are looking for’. And that, you know, that's I suppose, one of the things that I've always remembered, you know. And when you write yourself, and I've done a little bit of that, you might read it a few days later, and you think, oh, I didn't realise I'd written that. Something has gone through your unconscious into the work, you know, and that, that's what Peter was always, that's what we were always looking for. So we were trying to cut that edge, trying to get to that. Which is why Peter is such a great director of Chekhov and things of that nature. And, you know, also Shakespeare, which goes to the psychology. And that's what we were trying to deal with here, even in the Black Theatre Cooperative as young, young actors and theatre purveyors as we were.
21.00
And you know, the unique thing was that we had this massive barn of, two big barns of a space, but not the Studio One in particular, which we had to then, in terms of the, you know, oral thing, cos you do have to think about what it looks like. I mean, you know, it's all very well being psychological, but, you know, you can do that on the radio, you know what I mean?
So we had to then also think about how do you make this space work visually? So, yeah, those were the... and as I say, the thing that really stood out to me was the variety of artistic people here. Brian Maloney, who designed the posters. Great artist, but he designed the posters here, you know, And the wonderful posters, they were as well. Do you know what I mean? You know, top man, you know, and all these different young directors that Peter, he nourished and encouraged, that were coming through, that some of them went on to be big famous directors, you know?
So, yeah, that was really the thing. It was like just a, you know, the whole, you know, a hub like, I mean, I wanna be sort of metaphorical, but I'm not great at that. I was gonna say it's a sort of soup of, of different ingredients. But then it was kind of, just all different things - that some of the dance shows we used to go and see, oh, absolutely fantastic. You know, Gabby, whose name has escaped me, that wonderful dancer she was. And, of course, Michael Clark, and you know who was the one that became famous, I suppose. And then all the different theatre companies that Peter nourished and looked after, including us, Black Theatre Cooperative, and the music and the arts. Fantastic. That's what really turned me on about the place. And I spent a lot of time here, I can tell you, you know. Yeah.
[23.05]So just thinking back to your own personal involvement with Riverside Studios. You touched upon this to an extent already. But what would you say Riverside Studios has offered you, that you might not have been offered elsewhere. And, what sort of impact has Riverside studios had on your life and your career?
Well, that's a very good question, of course, and a profound one. Let me just say straight away and I'll explain. You know, from what Johnny Price said to me all those years ago, I know, because I know a lot of actors that have gone to the top drama schools here over the years. And, you know, it's great, you, you live in your.... But for me as a Black kid born in London in the 50s. And actually, you know, I'm not asking for any sort of sympathy, but the trauma that that involves, walking about with your mother, and even as a toddler, and what you got in the late 1950s and early 60s, you know. So having to then, thinking that you're worthless and you know, you're less than, you know, human, almost, to then getting to 18 in 1975. Or as I say, I was at Anna Sher’s, and Anna Sher then saying, no, you're not worthless, you are worth something. Every human being is worth something and has something to say, you know. And getting to that understanding and then finding myself at Riverside Studios from, say, 78-9 onwards then, so I'm 21-22, 79 onwards. So 21-22 that year, towards the end of the year, you know, having already sort of found a bit of worth in myself, and then being under the wing of Peter Gill, and being shown a direction but nothing imposed on you. It's about you, what's inside you? It was just about, encouraging you to, and training you, if you like, in how to articulate what you've got to say. It wasn't imposing from above what you should be saying, it was saying, you've got something to offer, but if you really want to get it across to people in the theatrical arts, this is what you'll need to do, you know? And, you know, you’ll need to be very physically fit, so you can move about the stage as you need to be. You need to be vocally fit, so that you can fill a,a, a, a theatre without shouting And you will need to be intellectually fit, so that you'll be able to analyse a text, you'll be able to work out what's going on deep down in that text, providing you find what that writer bypassed his head to put down, and you'll be able to share that with an audience, which is what theatre should be about.
So what it taught me was to, and what Peter particularly inculcated in me and maybe others, but I can only talk about myself, is, you know, you are a valuable human being, is what he seemed to say to everyone, and I will support you if you, so and, help you to actually, you know, share what you've got to offer. And that really is what Peter Gill here at, at the Riverside Studios, and after that, when I was in his company at the National Theatre, really pushed us on to believe the art's about, you know. These days, I don't wanna maybe, you know, I don't want to get negative about anyone, but these days, it seems sometimes you work with young directors. I'm forever thinking about Peter, and not just Peter, but other directors from that time, be it you know, Peter James or different great directors that were around in the 70s when I was a kid, in the early 80s.
You know, now you work with younger directors or even some middle-aged directors, and it seems that what they're interested in is putting their mark, and showing that they, you know, this is me, I've done this, you know? And it's about their career or about their mark, you know, and you actors, you know, this is what I want from you. So it's imposed from above. It was never like that, people like Peter Gill would never do that.
Here's the text, and we did the Scottish play at the National Theatre. Here's the text, let's delve into this text to find out what Mr, Mr Shakespeare meant. What's going on here in this ancient world with this fella Macbeth? You know this fella, Macduff? What's going on? You know what I mean? It was a very, very, potent time in the history of these islands. A lot of upheaval going on. And he's, and as the, as it was in in the the, the, the 16th century, when Shakespeare was working. So he, the parallels, you know, and he starts going into all that, Peter, you know, the parallels are there because he's trying to make the parallels now with what's going on in, you know, 1604, when they were, whenever that play was written, it was the end of the 1500s. And, you know, showing the parallels between what's happening now. You know, Queen Elizabeth the first, you know, da da, da, and, James, who came down from Scotland. And what happened then, bizarrely enough, Scotland, you know what I mean? So and, that's what we meant by intellect, and so that's what he was doing when we did other things as well, you know? And, it was very, very, very enlightening because it was all about what we've got to offer, you know, and getting that out of you, rather than in any way imposing stuff on you. First of all, most importantly, the text of the play you're doing: that's what we're doing, that's the Bible. Secondly, I'm not gonna tell you what that is. What does it mean to you, is what he was about.
And I think from my point of view, I'm now 66 years old, you know, it's taken me, it took me some time to climb out of that hole, you know, which was that trauma of, you know, being born a Black kid in England in the 50s, and then of course, the pendulum often swings far the other way, so I became rebellious and angry, and luckily for me, I could make a few films and plays where I could be that, you know what I mean, which helped, you know what I mean. But now, maybe later on, you become to see the pendulum starts to settle down, to a sort of clear vision of really what's going on. And, you know, and that's what I think I got from this place, and Peter, and watching the dancing and talking to Ernesto behind the, the food bar, a kid who was, you know, smuggled out of Chile as a baby, you know, and talking to Hanif up in the bookshop and talking to Gabby, the dancers, you know, and, and all these different people. And, you know, just having, you know, conversing with all the different artistic heads around this place all through that time, you know, and forming and finding out who I was. That's what I got from this place.
I'm just gonna take a wee pause there
So, this is Track 2 of our interview with Trevor Laird on the 19th of February 2024. We're here in, in Hammersmith at Riverside Studios. Trevor, you mentioned Peter Gill. You've also mentioned Hanif Kureishi, Michael Clarke and some of your other colleagues, that you've interacted with, like, Ernesto and Gabby. Are there any other individuals or performances or exhibitions that for you are particularly memorable from that time period, or afterwards?
Well, what here at Riverside, so much work, really. I mean, I don't know where to begin with the people that I met here. I mean, I mentioned, the people I've mentioned were people that were constantly here, but, you know, there was always people passing through as well. I can't even think off the top of my head some of the great actors that I've observed, you know, working in their, you know, I can't even think. But as I say, there were so many people that came through here, and, you know, and as I say, there's all the guys that you know, lots of people went on to work in Desmond's, as you say, and some of the Black things that were on TV, or EastEnders, The Bill, as you say, who were working class, and, and that's interesting, because it, they were working class people. And Peter, who himself was, came from a working-class background, originally somehow made it comfortable for those people to be here, and learn their craft. And then they'd go off and, you know, make television or the films or other theatre or whatever, but, you know, they were here, whereas it's still quite class, you know, got a class ridden thing, But not so much as it used to be in the 1970s, definitely. You know, I mean, I mean, the National Theatre now have just appointed their second director in a row that didn't go to Cambridge. That would have been because all the ones before did, you know. So, you know, from Rufus and, and now the lady from the, who, who ran the Kiln? Sorry, whose name I can't bring to mind, didn't go, well, I'm not sure, she might have gone to Cambridge, actually, but I don't know her that well, but I know that Rufus, didn't, you know.
And so it's, it was, it was just a great place and a, you know, to be at and a welcoming place. And that was because of the ethos of Peter and Dave Gotthard and the office, the people that ran the place, you know, wanted to have that open, it, so they could encourage young artistic people to come in and have a place to be, you know. So as I say, lots of people I can't even remember, probably I've worked with most of them, and then I come, I'm getting old, you know? You know? But...
[03.00]So just, I mean, you mentioned Hammersmith, I think, as a, as we, we've just touched upon Hammersmith as a setting for Riverside Studios during the course of our conversation. But, I mean, with, looking at Hammersmith, how has it changed in the time since you first started working here?
But again, that's an interesting one. I used to have friends who lived down, off Shepherd's Bush Road, up this end, I can't even remember the names of the roads exactly. But yeah, it was in the 70s, there was a few, some of these big houses just around this area, Hammersmith, were like squatted, you know, interesting, arty people, you know. Of course, when Mrs Thatcher and that came in, they brought in laws to sort of stop that sort of thing happen, happening, by the mid 80s. But, you know, there were lots of people around this area doing very interesting, energetic things, right? They, they were squatting in big houses and, you know, and lots of bedsits and things. I mean, lots of people, different artists, painters and people who lived in, around this area at that time.
And I say we were here every day, well, you know, unless we were out on tour or something. So we got to know these people, who would come in here for a cup of tea cos they were welcome, you know? And, you know, there was no, they'd sit down and they'd be in the bar there, in the, in the coffee bar area there. And, you know, you'd come out from a rehearsal or from the office, if I was in the office that day, and meet people who were artists and have a chat, and then they’d invite you around to somewhere to have a look at what they were painting or you know what I mean? So it was all that going on as well.
So Hammersmith was a lot more, I suppose now, well, it's like all London, isn't it? It's very expensive, and it's very difficult for young people. I've got two young children, you know, 22 and 25. You know, one's still just coming out of university. The other one's making their own way in London now. And, you know, one finds one still has to sort of help and subsidise them. When we were kids, I mean, I left home at 18, and just off I went, you know what I mean? And you could do it. You know, I was an actor at the time, but even so, you know, it was, it seemed a lot more easier for young people. Much more difficult for young people now, which is a shame
[5.20] You mentioned young people. How were audiences within the local community involved, in the performances?
Back in the day?
Yes.
I, I'll tell you. I think I can remember a review of a play which I wasn't even, I can't remember what a play it was, but it, but maybe it was a dance thing. But it was in the Guardian – of course I read the Guardian. You know what I mean? - saying that never before – and it was probably, it sounds like a Billington or a de Jongh – never before have I been in the theatre and seen so many different coloured hair. And it was like that, you know, the place: people would, there were so many interesting shows going on, and kids would come in to watch the theatre or definitely the dance. The dance was really out there, some of the dance companies that were here, you know? And so there was lots of young people, lots of energy, and they felt comfortable here.
And I'm trying to think. Now, where are we? 9, 2024, so 40 years ago, it was 84. So Peter was in his 40s at that time, probably. You know, certainly the mid to, middle to late 40s, even. But even so, young people come in and go, and Dave Gotthard himself you know, you know very much, come in, encourage all these young people to come in. And there was lots of that.
And again, we did our shows, Black Theatre Cooperative, in here. And we were in Hammersmith, didn't, it wasn't one of the Blackest areas around, but people would travel from Brixton or, you know, Notting Hill, that west London area, or Hackney where Black people particularly congregate and they would come here to Hammersmith, and we would, you know, you know, and that they were made to feel welcome. And sometimes in the in the cafe there, they'd be, make sure that when they knew our play was opening that week, they would make sure they put on a Caribbean, Caribbean food out there so that when people came here, they could buy Caribbean for, Oh, that's interesting, yeah, in Riverside Studios. And again, they thought about the people, not just imposing what they wanted on the people, but what do the people actually want?
You know, again, that was the, you know, and so that was very much, so lots of different young people would come here. I mean, it's not exactly on the high street, is it Riverside Studios? You know, you have to walk round from Hammersmith over, drop down from the Odeon or the Apollo, whatever they call it now. And all past the flats and all the way down to the river and cut round, you know, so but people knew where it was. And as I say, people like, and you can read about it, although you won't be able to interview Ben Zephaniah, you know. But I'm sure he's written things about when he was a kid, come down from Birmingham at the beginning of the 80s. This was a place that made him welcome. You know what I mean? And he's not the only one, you know. You know? So...
[8.20] So I mean, you've mentioned that young people, and those from diverse backgrounds felt comfortable at Riverside studios. Do you think in turn, that provided them with an introduction to the art?
Very likely. I mean, it's hard to tell, really. I mean, I can only tell you what I saw or what I felt. And at the time, what I felt was a lot of them had art in them anyway, and they were introducing me to, to lots of different art rather than, you know, Riverside introducing them to... People came in, they wanted to dance. They came in, they dressed in a particular way, you know, which was their own original way, and there were lots of originals. This was a great thing about the end of the 70s and into the 80s before things got strangled up a bit and mangled. You know, the government decided to put down, you know, to take control of things a bit, you know, but lots of young people felt free to express themselves, and they would come here, and I'd learn from them, talking to them. And hopefully they would come to see our show and learn from us what young black kids from England were doing. And I'd, you know, what the post punk kids would do, you know?
And a lot of poets. You know, Murray Lachlan, all these different young, you know, people trying to write poetry at the time, You know, modern poetry, you know, rather than you know. You know, we, we all know about the older poets, you know, but these people that are still going strong, some of them, and have made names for themselves. Writers, young, you know. And so we all learn from each other, I suppose. And this, as I say, rather than, introducing them or imposing anything on them, this place acted as an umbrella to encourage people, I think, more than anything. Yeah.
[10.13] So when you when you look at the, the if you like, the old version of Riverside Studios to what you see today, are there any elements that you feel are missing today?
Well, of course, you know, we're in a time in 2024 where everything has to be a bit corporate or it's gonna go under. Do you know what I mean? And Riverside obviously went down that route after....
Do you know, it’s a funny thing. I met a kid – this is the absolute truth actually, it's just come to me – I was. I was walking in here, I've got a little flat in the, the Kilburn West Hampstead area. And I was walking around that area one day, and a van pulled up and a guy got out and he said, Trevor Laird? Yeah, turned round. He said, Do you remember me? I said no. He was, got in his 40s, I don’t know. Well, whatever he was or 50s, or, you know, I said, no. He goes, I used to come to the Riverside Studios to see you. Like I said, it's really funny, he said, I've got my own, painting and decorating company now and we're we've been doing. they've turned Riverside into flats upstairs, and we've been decorating up there, my company. I said, Really, I never even knew this. I hadn't been here for years until I came back sort of last year. And I, I said. He said, It's the weirdest thing. My company, we got the contract to decorate some flats which are above Riverside Studios, I said, and, and then we started to... oh, he said, I remember all the shows we used to come and see there with you and all the guys and, you know, and, and his mate, Ross, whose name's gone out of my head, but was a young, working-class guy who then went to RADA, who then ended up, I think he was one of the main guys in that fireman show, London's Burning. I can't remember his last name, Ross, but he was one of the crowd of these young kids who used to come. They came from Camden Town area, but they'd come all the way here to hang out because it was a place where, you know, lots of ideas flowing around. And some of them, as I say, then became actors and writers. This guy is a painter and decorator, but, you know, you know, still, you know, creative, you know, and stopped me in the street, and we had a like, half hour conversation, and it was about Riverside, bizarrely enough. And it’s just, just come to me, that one. Yeah. So yeah, great times.
[12.30] What, what difference, if any, do you think that Riverside Studios have made? Very open question.
Yeah, made the cul, culturally or just in general?
In any way you, you consider relevant.
Well, all the people, all the people that I've already mentioned, quite a lot of them who found this, found a home here where they could, you know, really work on what they wanted to work on and then go out into the world with it. No greater example than Hanif himself. Hanif Kureishi, who Dave, Dave Gotthard got him, knew this young fella wanted to write. And I'm talking about when I met him in there, it would have been 1979-ish. He worked in the bookshop here at Riverside Studios, which was a job that was given to him, and he was happy for it cos he was making a living, but he was in there with books, in the bookshop because he wanted to write and he was writing himself, and eventually he wrote and didn't he write, do you know what I mean?
And your man Michael Clarke. I was on tour in Japan some years ago now, back in the 90s, late 90s you know, we were doing some Shakespeare in Japan and came across, you know, bloody hell, Michael Clark's here. I went to see him. Michael Clark was a superstar in Japan. It was, it was a big, he was well known here, but I couldn't believe it. We were in Japan, this is about 94-5, or when it was, and he's over there. But the Japanese people, to, you know, he was like a superstar, his style of dancing, what he was doing, Michael. You know, I hadn't seen him for a few years at that point, but, you know, it was just great to see what he was doing, you know,
And, you know, and so many other people that, so that, you know, interestingly enough, the people that have been nurtured here that have gone out then, of course, they're all middle aged, old. Bloody hell, I'm 66, you know what I mean? You know? And so they’re certainly over 60, the people I'm talking about now, but who, who have had a a footprint in the culture of Britain, you know, at that time, because, you know, the, the roots went down in the late70s, early 80s, and those people who made a bit of a position for themselves could move forward, whereas more in the 80s and moving forward, it became more difficult to do that because, you know, you know, the money was taken away, the Arts Council was changed, et cetera. All different things happened that the government of the day did, and so it became difficult. And so now it's even more difficult for young people to, you know, artistically really get their roots down where they can really work out what it is they're trying to do, and then go and do it unless they've got, you know, the financial backing of their parents, et cetera, et cetera, you know, where we could go to GLA.
You know, the, the, the Greater London Arts Association. And we'd say, you know, we wanna do this play. They said Oh, they'd read it. Oh, we like this. You know what I mean? Go on, here's a few grand. And the rule was, if GLA or any of your regional arts associations gave you some money to do something, the Arts Council of England had to match it. So once you've got your bit of GLA, you then go to the, we've got this, and they had to give you money. Well, one of the things that the, the, the government did in the mid-80s was stop that, you know. So that's how we got going at Black Theatre Cooperative. We get what they call project grants, but each play, we'll have to bring it down, then say we wanna do this play. Once we've done one or two, obviously they knew who we were, so it was easier that eventually, we got a proper yearly grant off the Arts Council. You know, once we've done four or five shows that were successful, you know? In the old days....
[16.30] So I had a couple of more questions, if I could just ask if I may. I had a chance, an opportunity to look through the archives at Riverside Studios recently. And that includes some press reviews and sort of clippings from some of the, in relation to some of the, the performance, performances that were put on here. One of those was Trojans from 1982. What, what struck me looking at those reviews was how negative some of the reviews were, how critical some of them were, almost scathing of some of the, the actual, the, the, the topics that have been covered. They made a point of, of usually, of praising Pauline Black's performance, but they took a different view on the actual nature of the actual perform, the play itself. What I wondered was whether, if you were to put that same performance on now in 2024, whether the response, do you think, would be the same as it was back 40 or so years ago,
It was a very ambitious project, and I was a very young man to be directing that. Of course we've got to remember is, is Faruukh Dhondy, who wrote the play, was one in the, in, in the 60s and 70s was one of the Black Panthers, British Black Panthers here in Britain were Darcus Howe, you know, Linton Kwesi Johnson, and these people, we know who they are and so on. And he was a real political guy. And it was a very ambitious project to take the Iliad and try and sort of modernise it up, you know, and basically looking at the, at the, at the, the, the Paris Helen element of it with, that started the whole, the, the war of the Trojans, et cetera. And try and make that into a modern, to speak about Britain in the modern sense of the 80s.
And frankly and honestly, I probably was an inexperienced director to have directed it, so much so that the Arts Council came in afterwards and said to me, Look, you know, you're one of the people that runs this company. We think we wanna back you to train as a director. But you can't do it with Black Theatre Cooperative cos you're one of the people that run the company. We wanna send you away, give you a bursary to train as a director. And I ended up at Liverpool Playhouse for 18 months and, to train as a director, you know, as an assistant director, where I was out of the pressure of actually being one of the people that runs it, and also out of the pressure of giving myself too big a job to do, you know, but you, basically it was....
Now Pauline, who was a friend of mine, I actually, you know, asked her to be in that, and it was her first entrance into the theatrical field. And she, of course, one of the great women, heads of, you know, a great pop singer and a great, but a great intellectual person and a political person as well. And you know, but of course, she sang mostly because she played, you know, the, the, what's that character who can see into the future? You know, Cassandra? Yeah, she played Cassandra in it. And in it, all the things that she sees in the future are all songs, so basically, she sang, you know. So she sings, you know? So that was, so you can see how ambitious it was from that point of view as well, you know? And we had a band, obviously, and, you know. But it was a difficult project, and quite obviously, I wasn't capable of doing it. I, I, you know, I'd, I'd hopefully be more capable of doing it now, but it did get better because we went on tour and it did get better. We, we, cos after we did it here,
which is where it started. And we had some problems, with one of the actresses having a breakdown and me having to take the part over myself, changing the, the part into a male part and taking it over because one actress broke down, and the actress we got to replace her broke down as well. I mean, this was some serious stuff going, so I had to relearn the lines and do it myself, you know? But by the time, then we went out on tour and we ended up then doing it in Deptford. You know that theatre in Deptford? I can't remember the name of it, so off the top of my head - I'm getting old. But there's a theatre in Deptford, it's probably still there, and we came back to London with it, and then it went really well there because we'd ironed out a lot of the problems, but when we did it here, it was, well, I mean, I wouldn't blame the reviewers, an unmitigated, to my mind, not disaster, but it was a learning curve. But the point is, Peter was there for us. We overstretched our ambition, so I certainly did. And, but it didn't, you know, it, it, it didn't throw me out. We still were here.
[21.24] You mentioned Pauline Black. I recently saw the re-released version of Dance Craze, I don't know if you're familiar with that DVD. It's the recordings of some of the, the Two Tone bands were around in 1980 that sort of period, which I, was, is an incredible film. I was just wondering whether that, from your perspective, obviously, there was a large musical element to Trojans. Are there any bands around now from your perspective, which have the same level or similar level of energy and, and spirit?
As the Two Tone? Well, that was a special thing to do, so you've gotta imagine what that was coming out of. You know, we had punk. Then we had, you know, the post punk thing, the new romantic, well, the new romantics was a little bit after. But, but then up there in Coventry and Birmingham and so on, these young, you know, Jerry Dammers. And you know, Terry Hall, again God rest his soul, you know, lovely people. And then Pauline who I know very, very well, but she's still a very close friend of mine. You know, and these people in Coventry fermented something interesting, you know, taking, you know, from the, the black music. And you know, the sort of new wavy, and melded something together that was very, very interesting. And The Beat from Birmingham, another great band.
And, now I don't know because, well, let's be honest, there probably is something going on, but I'm old. I don't really know. I mean, I, you know, I'm listening to Charlie Mingus and Miles Davis. You know? I mean, just, you know, now, you know, going back to, to, to, to that great revolution. But, you know, I'm sure that the young people I know, from the north anyway, talk to me about the Arctic Monkeys, you know, and these, you know, I think bands that grow out of their community like they seem to have. There are bands around that are doing that, but, to be honest with you, I wouldn't know. I'm, you know, the young people would know. I mean, I'm, you know, but I, hopefully they are managing to do it, even though, you know, the society is not particularly welcoming to helping young art at the moment, in my opinion.
That's been incredibly enjoyable. Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you.
We covered a lot of areas there, all of which are relevant and very insightful. Thank you.
Thank you very much, thank you.
